Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam against free speech?

Brian Ross

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #570 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 12:51am

Yadda wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:22pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 6:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 4:43pm:

Wow 0.168% of the Muslim population holds strange ideas on Freedom of Speech... Roll Eyes

Yeah - and they are organised and militantly Islamic. They are not afraid to spell out their impeccably Islamic ideas. Not strange - Islamic.
That's why the 'vast majority' are not setting the agenda.
Where is the massive Muslim demonstration in Australia in solidarity with the murdered cartoonists?
Nowhere because they are lying doggo as always.
Once again the only Muslims on the street are the agenda setting strong horse militants.

Lying dogs, more like.

You shouldn't call FD a "lying dog", Y. It's rude. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #571 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 12:55am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 12:50am:

freediver wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 6:12pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 6:07pm:

[quote author=Brian_Ross link=1217813944/558#558 date=1422081821]Wow 0.168% of the Muslim population holds strange ideas on Freedom of Speech... Roll Eyes

Yeah - and they are organised and militantly Islamic.

Yet they are expressing their opinions peacefully, Soren.

Quote:

That's why the 'vast majority' are not setting the agenda.

They are a noisy minority, Soren. Why do you assume they are "setting the agenda" when the other 99.832% are obviously ignoring them? Roll Eyes

Where in Australia are they represent "the majority of Muslims", FD? Where did that factoid come from, might I ask? Perhaps you'd like to provide a link to this source, please? And where are these places in Australia where the "majority of Muslims hold even more extreme views than this"?

Malaysia, of course.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #572 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:15am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 12:50am:

Where in Australia are they represent "the majority of Muslims", FD? Where did that factoid come from, might I ask? Perhaps you'd like to provide a link to this source, please? And where are these places in Australia where the "majority of Muslims hold even more extreme views than this"? Again, where did you find this claim? A link please?

The PEW survey of course - but strictly only the Malaysians. Not the Indonesians of course, who inconveniently have rather more liberal views - and are over 10 times the population. We also must be careful not to look at the research in its entirety either - it demonstrates the rather uncomfortable fact that muslims overall - across all the samples of the survey - predominantly reject the extremist views FD constantly cherry picks out.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #573 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:28am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:15am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 12:50am:

Where in Australia are they represent "the majority of Muslims", FD? Where did that factoid come from, might I ask? Perhaps you'd like to provide a link to this source, please? And where are these places in Australia where the "majority of Muslims hold even more extreme views than this"? Again, where did you find this claim? A link please?

The PEW survey of course - but strictly only the Malaysians. Not the Indonesians of course, who inconveniently have rather more liberal views - and are over 10 times the population. We also must be careful not to look at the research in its entirety either - it demonstrates the rather uncomfortable fact that muslims overall - across all the samples of the survey - predominantly reject the extremist views FD constantly cherry picks out.

That’s unfair, G. FD also gets his information from speaking to real life Muslims.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #574 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:29am

freediver wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

They are a noisy minority who reflect the opinion of far more than 0.2% of Muslims. In many places they are representative of the majority of Muslims. In many places, the majority of Muslims hold even more extreme views than this.

And by 'extreme views', FD is of course referring to such anti-western ideas as supporting the banning of expressing a certain view on history, or opposing the amendment of an anti-racism law that would make it no longer unlawful to "offend" certain groups of people. Such attitudes which naturally exists only amongst the freedom-hating muslims and no one else.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #575 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:47am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:29am:

freediver wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

They are a noisy minority who reflect the opinion of far more than 0.2% of Muslims. In many places they are representative of the majority of Muslims. In many places, the majority of Muslims hold even more extreme views than this.

And by 'extreme views', FD is of course referring to such anti-western ideas as supporting the banning of expressing a certain view on history, or opposing the amendment of an anti-racism law that would make it no longer unlawful to "offend" certain groups of people. Such attitudes which naturally exists only amongst the freedom-hating muslims and no one else.

Exactly. These people want to take away the freeeedoms of decent white people everywhere.

People like the old boy, who expects the world to be run by a coalition of British and Danes (the two common law fair-skinned peoples) along with other Western Europeans, and the tinted races can either accept this and submit or be carpet-bombed.

Or Herbie, who believes it is the white-man’s responsibility to practice maternity-ward discrimination against the dark-skinned hoards, and any traitor who doesn’t should be gassed on mass like the rats they are and have their remains cremated and used as fertiliser, etc, etc, etc.

We believe in justice and liberty, you see. We have values. The Muselman believes in nothing more than tribal elitism and genocide.

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« Last Edit: Jan 25^th, 2015 at 2:04am by Karnal »

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #576 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 8:12am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 1:15am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 12:50am:

Where in Australia are they represent "the majority of Muslims", FD? Where did that factoid come from, might I ask? Perhaps you'd like to provide a link to this source, please? And where are these places in Australia where the "majority of Muslims hold even more extreme views than this"? Again, where did you find this claim? A link please?

The PEW survey of course - but strictly only the Malaysians. Not the Indonesians of course, who inconveniently have rather more liberal views - and are over 10 times the population. We also must be careful not to look at the research in its entirety either - it demonstrates the rather uncomfortable fact that muslims overall - across all the samples of the survey - predominantly reject the extremist views FD constantly cherry picks out.

More liberal than what? Malaysia is an example of a place where the majority of Muslims hold far more extreme views than Brian's 0.2%.

Gandalf do you agree with Brian that the protests are only representative of the Muslims who turned up?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bias_2012

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #577 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 9:33am

Karnal wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:10pm:

Ban them.

That wouldn't be such a bad idea, stop any further immigration of Muslims until they get themselves sorted out on the issues of freedom and justice and especially the problem of trouble makers that plan attacks and take hostages etc

The immigration department needs to specifically assign some moderate clerics to spend two hours with new arrivals advising them to leave their Islamic barbarism of the old country behind and adopt the new peaceful Australian Islam of the Moderates and live within Australian Rule of Law. A non-Muslim Aussie Immigration department official could monitor the talk

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Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable

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Yadda

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #578 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 9:48am

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 9:33am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:10pm:

Ban them.

That wouldn't be such a bad idea, stop any further immigration of Muslims until they get themselves sorted out on the issues of freedom and justice and especially the problem of trouble makers that plan attacks and take hostages etc

The immigration department needs to specifically assign some moderate clerics

to spend two hours with new arrivals advising them to leave their Islamic barbarism of the old country behind and adopt the new peaceful Australian Islam of the Moderates and live within Australian Rule of Law. A non-Muslim Aussie Immigration department official could monitor the talk

bias_2012,

LOL

Yeah.

'Some moderate ISLAMIC clerics.'

Hang on, i just happen to have one here!!

He came free, in the bottom of my Corn Flakes packet. Cheesy

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Yadda said....
Quote:

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Google;
Shahada, confession of faith, of a muslim

"There is no god except for Allah alone; and Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah."

Today, many moslems - living in Australia - are insisting that we, Australians, must be forced to believe the incredible;

"I'm a moslem, and i worship Allah, and i revere Mohammed his messenger.
And i know that Allah calls for the enslavement and/or murder of all non-moslems - THROUGH JIHAD [religious fighting, when moslems have that 'opportunity'].

But i don't follow that part of my faith.

HONEST!"

Dictionary;
incredible = =
1 impossible to believe.
2 difficult to believe; extraordinary.

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bias_2012,

CRIMINAL INTENT, IN THE MOSLEM HEART
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1252898491/0#0
Quote:

Every moslem in Australia [and indeed, every moslem on the planet], by self declaring as a moslem, is self declaring a criminal intent [by our laws] against local non-moslems.

ISLAM is a criminal compact among moslems, to wage a violent 'religious' war against non-moslems ['unbelievers'].

.....Basically, fundamentally, all ISLAMIC doctrine translates as enmity, and encourages [criminal] violence, towards ALL non-moslems.

+++

Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine

"...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden, insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

Google,
smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #579 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:03pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Gandalf do you agree with Brian that the protests are only representative of the Muslims who turned up?

And what were they protesting FD? The depiction of their prophet - do they have a right to do that? Is it anti-freedom to express your disapproval of something being published? Is it anti-freedom to protest the view that muslims have to enthusiastically embrace insults hurled toward them?

Thats what they are saying. I mostly don't agree with Hizb ut-Tahrir's views, but in this case there is nothing 'anti-freedom' about what they are doing here - Charlie Hebdo has every right to publish what they publish, and muslims have every right to denounce them for doing so. It is increasingly more apparent that you don't understand what freedom of speech is about - you seem to think its a one way street - insult muslims, and muslims must be happy about it. As soon as muslims exercise their freedom to oppose those insults peacefully, they are suddenly not playing the right game. You're really no different to swagman and his crowd - complaining that speaking out against Andrew Bolt and co amounts to "gagging" people, and therefore a heinous attack on free speech.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #580 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:10pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 9:33am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:10pm:

Ban them.

That wouldn't be such a bad idea, stop any further immigration of Muslims until they get themselves sorted out on the issues of freedom and justice and especially the problem of trouble makers that plan attacks and take hostages etc

The immigration department needs to specifically assign some moderate clerics to spend two hours with new arrivals advising them to leave their Islamic barbarism of the old country behind and adopt the new peaceful Australian Islam of the Moderates and live within Australian Rule of Law. A non-Muslim Aussie Immigration department official could monitor the talk

That should fix it. A couple of hours behind the two-way mirrors of an immigration office. Promise to obey and be nice?

Yes, Sahib. God willing.

Good. Now sign the form and send the next one in.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #581 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:17pm a "moderate" member of the islamic community "advising" new muslim immigrants? man, Yadda will have a field day with this one.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #582 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Gandalf do you agree with Brian that the protests are only representative of the Muslims who turned up?

And what were they protesting FD? The depiction of their prophet - do they have a right to do that? Is it anti-freedom to express your disapproval of something being published? Is it anti-freedom to protest the view that muslims have to enthusiastically embrace insults hurled toward them?

Thats what they are saying. I mostly don't agree with Hizb ut-Tahrir's views, but in this case there is nothing 'anti-freedom' about what they are doing here - Charlie Hebdo has every right to publish what they publish, and muslims have every right to denounce them for doing so. It is increasingly more apparent that you don't understand what freedom of speech is about - you seem to think its a one way street - insult muslims, and muslims must be happy about it. As soon as muslims exercise their freedom to oppose those insults peacefully, they are suddenly not playing the right game. You're really no different to swagman and his crowd - complaining that speaking out against Andrew Bolt and co amounts to "gagging" people, and therefore a heinous attack on free speech.

Sure, but after magazine staff were shot and killed in France? After security levels around the world have been justifiably raised? Over cartoons?

You’re right about free speech. The protest was harmless. But it was ham-fisted and callous. Australian Muslims protesting against satirical images of Muhammed - in French - are no different in my view to Christian zealots protesting against the Last Temptation of Christ or the Life if Brian - movies none of them had seen.

These are people calling for censorship, not free speech. Of course they have the right to do it. But in the light of what’s gone down, it reads as bigoted, dogmatic and fundamentally tactless. Outside the mosque, the image of Muhammed is no more sacred than the story of Jesus or the unpronouncable name of G_d.

Muhammed, Jesus, Moses, the Buddha - all are fair game. Protesting against this is about censoring free speech, and yes, I do think Muslims need to resign themselves to this.The image of God or His declared prophets or saints does not belong to any one tribe. Not even our own images belong to us.

Treating Muhammed’s image as sacred is the sort of backward superstition Muhammed railed against. Protesting against imagery or words does not make you pious, it simply makes you angry and idolatrous. This is ultimately what protests are about.They rally the anger of crowds for political purposes. They mobilize people for struggle.

After a series of shootings, sieges and international death threats, I’d say this is the last thing people should be focusing on. This is a good time to focus on personal submission and struggle, not rally the troops. People are free to protest, but they’re also free to put their foot in their mouths and alienate those they’d like to bring on board.

For me, dogmatic Muslims who can’t stomach or understand satire are just as bad - if not worse - than idiots like Pickering who seek to stir things up. We’re not Muslims and Westerners, we’re people. This is what all the prophets have taught. God is secular.

This is not the time for anger, it’s the time for sympathy and respect.

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« Last Edit: Jan 25^th, 2015 at 4:10pm by Karnal »

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Brian Ross

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #583 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:50pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

More liberal than what? Malaysia is an example of a place where the majority of Muslims hold far more extreme views than Brian's 0.2%.

Last time I checked, Malaysia wasn't Australia, FD. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Gandalf do you agree with Brian that the protests are only representative of the Muslims who turned up?

Who else were they representing, FD? Did people sign some sort of proxy document? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #584 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 4:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

Gandalf do you agree with Brian that the protests are only representative of the Muslims who turned up?

And what were they protesting FD? The depiction of their prophet - do they have a right to do that? Is it anti-freedom to express your disapproval of something being published? Is it anti-freedom to protest the view that muslims have to enthusiastically embrace insults hurled toward them?

Thats what they are saying. I mostly don't agree with Hizb ut-Tahrir's views, but in this case there is nothing 'anti-freedom' about what they are doing here - Charlie Hebdo has every right to publish what they publish, and muslims have every right to denounce them for doing so. It is increasingly more apparent that you don't understand what freedom of speech is about - you seem to think its a one way street - insult muslims, and muslims must be happy about it. As soon as muslims exercise their freedom to oppose those insults peacefully, they are suddenly not playing the right game. You're really no different to swagman and his crowd - complaining that speaking out against Andrew Bolt and co amounts to "gagging" people, and therefore a heinous attack on free speech.

I notice you didn't answer the question Gandalf.

And what is this "not playing the right game" nonsense? Am I a hypocrite for pointing out their idiocy or their opposition to freedom of speech?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?
Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed 11 (55.0%) Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops 4 (20.0%) Something else 5 (25.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: freediver on: Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:43pm »