Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam against free speech?

freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #600 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:44pm

Quote:

Obviously you won't find it, because that was not what they are saying. They are saying very clearly that they are against the arrogant western view that in order to be a 'freedom lover', you have to accept insults to the prophet.

And you have the quotes showing them saying this? What else can freedom of speech mean? Can you love freedom of speech while refusing to accept it?

Quote:

That is not freedom, and its quite amusing that it needs to be explained to you by Hizb-Ut-Tahrir of all people. Freedom is both being able to insult and equally being able to condemn such insults as unacceptable.

They are not defending their right to be upset about Muhammed cartoons. They are rejecting the right to publish them. They state this quite clearly Gandalf, and only desperation to read the wrong intent into their words could lead you to any other conclusion.

Quote:

Demanding that certain viewpoints must be accepted without protest is the very opposite to freedom. Yet that is what you would have us believe freedom is about.

I suppose you have quotes of me saying this also? Or are you demonstrating your powers of interpretation for us again?

Quote:

Because you seem incapable of understanding what freedom of speech even is. You think condemning a certain view and protesting the idea that it must be accepted is somehow anti-freedom.

Is this anti-freedom or not gandalf? "We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow"

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #601 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:49pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

Quote:
Obviously you won't find it, because that was not what they are saying. They are saying very clearly that they are against the arrogant western view that in order to be a 'freedom lover', you have to accept insults to the prophet.

And you have the quotes showing them saying this?

Sure:

Quote:

We are the arrogant West and you Muslims have to accept our world view, you have to accept our freedoms ... to insult your prophet

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

They are not defending their right to be upset about Muhammed cartoons. They are rejecting the right to publish them. They state this quite clearly Gandalf

Oh I know FD, they say it so clearly that its not there at all. Genius

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49091 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #602 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:51pm They state clearly and repeatedly that they reject freedom and they reject the right to mock Muhammed. Somehow Gandalf turns this into "we support the right to mock Muhammed, but only if we can also deny the holocaust". Perhaps it was the "arrogant west" bit that confused you Gandalf.
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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #603 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 11:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 5:48pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

These are people calling for censorship

Are they? Show me where they state this.

This is where I believe both you and FD have it wrong - saying the publications are wrong is not saying they should be banned.

Personally I think the protest has a very legitimate concern - since the shootings its been "team Australia" all over again - show solidarity by reproducing and loving the cartoons otherwise you are not with "us". Thats what the protest is about - against these crass demands we see everywhere to make a choice: stand up for the cartoons - or be a freedom hater. You are simply not allowed to condemn both the shootings and the cartoons - you are either Charlie Hebdo or the terrorist.

Karnal wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

After a series of shootings, sieges and international death threats, I’d say this is the last thing people should be focusing on.

So you disagree with people peacefully expressing themselves in a certain way. How exactly does that make you any different from the muslim protesters you are condemning?

The protesters are rallying in support of their prophet’s image.More, they’re rallying against other people’s use of it.

I don’t disagree with their right to protest. I disagree with their fundamentalism.

The satirical image of anyone is up for grabs. Muhammed’s image belongs to no one. Claiming it belongs to Muslims is just posturing. It’s certainly about Muslims, which was the point of the cartoons. They were about Islam, not Muhammed.

The protests were about the ownership of the image of the prophet. I don’t think anyone should own a thought, therefore no, I don’t agree with people protesting to censor them.

I actually think such protests are incredibly arrogant, but feel free to show me otherwise.

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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #604 - Jan 25^th, 2015 at 11:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Just show me where they were specifically calling for bans on insulting the prophet. Obviously you won't find it, because that was not what they are saying. They are saying very clearly that they are against the arrogant western view that in order to be a 'freedom lover', you have to accept insults to the prophet. That is not freedom, and its quite amusing that it needs to be explained to you by Hizb-Ut-Tahrir of all people. Freedom is both being able to insult and equally being able to condemn such insults as unacceptable. Demanding that certain viewpoints must be accepted without protest is the very opposite to freedom. Yet that is what you would have us believe freedom is about.

The 'vast majority' of Gandys are Hizbies, after all.

You keep forgetting that this is not about protest but about the murder of 17 people by Muslims who think like you - that Mohammed must not be mocked by people who do not regard him as a prophet and are not Muslims.

Carry on as if that was something you can ignore and still be credible.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #605 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 12:15am

Karnal wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 11:30pm:

The protests were about the ownership of the image of the prophet. I don’t think anyone should own a thought, therefore no, I don’t agree with people protesting to censor them.

The protest was against the old 'you are either with us or against us' mentality; the idea that you are either with the cartoonists or with the terrorists. That is abundantly clear in the protester's quote I posted. FD's off his head as usual, but I'm hoping that you at least can see sense.

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:51pm:

Perhaps it was the "arrogant west" bit that confused you Gandalf.

The "arrogant west" is indeed confusing - especially if it reflects your bizarre views - like thinking that expressing disapproval to insults directed towards muslims, and rejecting the idea that freedom necessarily entails supporting people insulting you - is somehow "clearly" calling for censorship.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #606 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 8:53am

Quote:

The protest was against the old 'you are either with us or against us' mentality

Even though they do not actually say this? They say, repeatedly, that they are against freedom and against the right to mock Muhammed. Why are you so desperate to misinterpret these fellow Muslims in a more positive light Gandalf? It's like you are compelled to.

Quote:

That is abundantly clear in the protester's quote I posted.

No it isn't. It says nothing of the sort.

Quote:

The "arrogant west" is indeed confusing

I'm guessing that is where you get all of your interpretation of their words from. You reject the rest of what they actually say, and substitute in what you think they mean by the arrogant west. Try backing up your interpretation of their words, leaving out the arrogant west bit, and you will be lost.

"We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow"

They could not have made their position clearer Gandalf.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #607 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 10:23am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 12:15am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 11:30pm:

The protests were about the ownership of the image of the prophet. I don’t think anyone should own a thought, therefore no, I don’t agree with people protesting to censor them.

The protest was against the old 'you are either with us or against us' mentality; the idea that you are either with the cartoonists or with the terrorists. That is abundantly clear in the protester's quote I posted. FD's off his head as usual, but I'm hoping that you at least can see sense..

People don’t rally over shades of grey, G. The protesters came out to defend the image of Muhammed. If I’m wrong about this, please show me.

I know it’s also.about racism and Islamophobia and the place of Muslims in Australia, but the rallying call was religion, and religious ideology.

After what happened, it’s pretty hard not to look at multicultural rallies in support of the Charlie victims and see righteousness.

A contrasting rally of Muslims defending their prophet’s inage?

For me, it’s very hard not to see this as blasphemy.

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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #608 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 10:42am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 12:15am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 11:30pm:

The protests were about the ownership of the image of the prophet. I don’t think anyone should own a thought, therefore no, I don’t agree with people protesting to censor them.

The protest was against the old 'you are either with us or against us' mentality; the idea that you are either with the cartoonists or with the terrorists. That is abundantly clear in the protester's quote I posted. FD's off his head as usual, but I'm hoping that you at least can see sense.

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:51pm:

Perhaps it was the "arrogant west" bit that confused you Gandalf.

The "arrogant west" is indeed confusing - especially if it reflects your bizarre views - like thinking that expressing disapproval to insults directed towards muslims, and rejecting the idea that freedom necessarily entails supporting people insulting you - is somehow "clearly" calling for censorship.

Freedom of speech is about freedom of though. Muslims - or anyone else - do not have the right to be sheltered from derision and low opinion of their ideology.

Thoughts, Gandy. It is OK to think that Islam is a bad thing. It is OK to think that Israel is a bad thing or Christianity or coal. And if you have the wit you can say it out lour or write it or draw it.

And if you have the wit you can make a counter argument in speech or writing or drawing.

It is not OK to be so incensed by what others think of you and to be so witless and evil that you go and kill them.

Your little defence of the Hizbies and the Muslim emotional incontinence is really incentivising violence. Muslims are ridiculed and they have no choice but go ape sh!t. You incentivise violence AND unwittingly place Muslims on a much lower level of responsibility than others. Poor sods, can't help being violent but as everyone knows this, we must not provoke or deride them.
Madness.

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« Last Edit: Jan 26^th, 2015 at 11:59am by Soren »

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Yadda

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #609 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 11:50am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Just show me where they were specifically calling for bans on insulting the prophet. Obviously you won't find it, because that was not what they are saying. They are saying very clearly that they are against the arrogant western view that in order to be a 'freedom lover', you have to accept insults to the prophet. That is not freedom, and its quite amusing that it needs to be explained to you by Hizb-Ut-Tahrir of all people.

Freedom is both being able to insult and equally being able to condemn such insults as unacceptable.

Demanding that certain viewpoints must be accepted without protest is the very opposite to freedom. Yet that is what you would have us believe freedom is about.

How moslems, in nation like Australia, go about 'condemning insults as unacceptable.'.

IMAGE....

Moslem protest, on Sydney streets, 2012

IMAGE...

Moslem protest, on Sydney streets, 2012

Many moslems feel that this [images above], are appropriate ways, for moslems, to express themselves.

QUESTION;

Why is that ?

Why do moslems feel that this [images above], is an appropriate way to express themselves ?

ANSWER;

Coz they [moslems] are sick ^%$#@!'s

IMO, ISLAM 'creates' a mental pathology [a 'sickness'] in the psyche of those human beings who choose to embrace it.

Koran.

Hadith.

IMO, moslem are not 'fit' to walk on our streets.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1409991405/8#8
Quote:

Promoting and encouraging violent and unlawful acts is illegal.

We live in a country in which the people supposedly respect the force rule of law.

Without widespread respect for the law of the land, we [our Australian society] would descend into being like Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Somalia, etc, etc - which is exactly what moslems are trying to achieve.

Moslems want to destroy all of the institutions in Australia, which help to maintain a peaceful and functioning society.

SUGGESTION;
If you live in Australia and you don't like what ISLAM promotes
then you should contact your federal parliamentary representative - EXPLAIN TO HIM/HER WHY YOU DO NOT LIKE ISLAM AND MOSLEMS - and encourage your federal parliamentary representative to try to get ISLAM lawfully declared a proscribed [banned] group in Australia.

Act within the law.

Otherwise we are no better than moslems.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Panther

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #610 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 1:32pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 11:50am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 25^th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Just show me where they were specifically calling for bans on insulting the prophet. Obviously you won't find it, because that was not what they are saying. They are saying very clearly that they are against the arrogant western view that in order to be a 'freedom lover', you have to accept insults to the prophet. That is not freedom, and its quite amusing that it needs to be explained to you by Hizb-Ut-Tahrir of all people.

Freedom is both being able to insult and equally being able to condemn such insults as unacceptable.

Demanding that certain viewpoints must be accepted without protest is the very opposite to freedom. Yet that is what you would have us believe freedom is about.

How moslems, in nation like Australia, go about 'condemning insults as unacceptable.'.

IMAGE....
http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2014/08/27/1227038/812722-d0870956-2cc7-11e...

Moslem protest, on Sydney streets, 2012

IMAGE...
http://images.smh.com.au/2012/09/15/3637564/art-protest3-620x349.jpg

Moslem protest, on Sydney streets, 2012

Many moslems feel that this [images above], are appropriate ways, for moslems, to express themselves.

QUESTION;

Why is that ?

Why do moslems feel that this [images above], is an appropriate way to express themselves ?

ANSWER;

Coz they [moslems] are sick ^%$#@!'s

IMO, ISLAM 'creates' a mental pathology [a 'sickness'] in the psyche of those human beings who choose to embrace it.

Koran.

Hadith.

IMO, moslem are not 'fit' to walk on our streets.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1409991405/8#8
Quote:

Promoting and encouraging violent and unlawful acts is illegal.

We live in a country in which the people supposedly respect the force rule of law.

Without widespread respect for the law of the land, we [our Australian society] would descend into being like Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Somalia, etc, etc - which is exactly what moslems are trying to achieve.

Moslems want to destroy all of the institutions in Australia, which help to maintain a peaceful and functioning society.

SUGGESTION;
If you live in Australia and you don't like what ISLAM promotes
then you should contact your federal parliamentary representative - EXPLAIN TO HIM/HER WHY YOU DO NOT LIKE ISLAM AND MOSLEMS - and encourage your federal parliamentary representative to try to get ISLAM lawfully declared a proscribed [banned] group in Australia.

Act within the law.

Otherwise we are no better than moslems.

+1

Well said, not overly succinct, but clear & to the point.

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21786 A cat with a view	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #611 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 3:21pm Panther wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 1:32pm: +1 Well said, not overly succinct, but clear & to the point. DreamRyderX, Yes, that is my character fault. [........one of many, i've been told.] I'm not overly succinct. ask bobby.
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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #612 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 11:23pm Yadda clear and to the point? I suppose so, he really only has the one point - hatred of all Muslims.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #613 - Jan 26^th, 2015 at 11:48pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 8:53am:

Even though they do not actually say this? They say, repeatedly, that they are against freedom and against the right to mock Muhammed. Why are you so desperate to misinterpret these fellow Muslims in a more positive light Gandalf? It's like you are compelled to.

Don't be juvenile. What 'freedom' are they opposed to? Just freedom in general - like say the freedom to practice islam? Or the freedom to speak out against people mocking the prophet? Thats how retarded your argument gets. No, they specifically said *YOUR* freedom - as in the version of freedom that says islam must be insulted, and muslims must be ok with that. Once again:

Quote:

"They force their world view onto us: 'We are the arrogant West and you Muslims have to accept our world view, you have to accept our freedoms ... to insult your prophet',"

Quote:

I'm guessing that is where you get all of your interpretation of their words from. You reject the rest of what they actually say, and substitute in what you think they mean by the arrogant west. Try backing up your interpretation of their words, leaving out the arrogant west bit, and you will be lost.

So says the guy claiming they are demanding censorship - based on absolutely nothing at all

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #614 - Jan 27^th, 2015 at 12:18am

Karnal wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 10:23am:

[quote author=gandalf link=1217813944/605#605 date=1422195301]

People don’t rally over shades of grey, G. The protesters came out to defend the image of Muhammed. If I’m wrong about this, please show me.

Well for starters, they were not defending the image of Muhammad - they were condemning it.

Quote:

After what happened, it’s pretty hard not to look at multicultural rallies in support of the Charlie victims and see righteousness.

A contrasting rally of Muslims defending their prophet’s inage?

For me, it’s very hard not to see this as blasphemy.

au contraire. Its amazingly easy to look at the posturing by the hypocritical west in the aftermath of the shootings with the greatest of contempt. I'm not sure if that anti-semite was arrested for his offensive facebook comment on the same day of the famous hand-holding street march, but in any case it would be difficult to script a more blatantly hypocritical scenario. And to have Benjamin Netanyahu leading the march was just icing on the cake. This of course in the backdrop of a country who hands out prison sentences for people who express a particular view on history.

The Hizb-ut-tahrir rep at the protest is right on the money when he says "freedom" is merely a tool - a deeply cynical and hypocritical tool used by the west. When Charlie Hebdo wasn't being shot at by terrorists, the great freedom loving leaders of the free world were calling for their cartoons to be censored, and for Charlie Hebdo to be pulled into line. I believe a former employee of the paper pointed this out in the days after the shooting while giving a big "farrk you very much" to the hollow je suis Charlie gestures by the French leaders. The same leaders who threaten anyone with gaol time if they dare express a certain view on history, and arrest people for posting comments deemed insensitive on their facebook page. Meanwhile we had the revelation that Charlie Hebdo itself had previously severely censured one of its cartoonists for making an anti-semitic cartoon. This came out just after we sat through Charlie Hebdo's stirring grandstanding about how nothing is ever off limits, and how they are an "equal opportunity" offender.

Yes of course it detracts from the message that it was Hizb ut tahrir who delivered it in this case, who as far as I'm concerned are first grade nice people. I sat through an agonizing 20 minutes or so of one representative avoiding a simple acknowledgement of ISIS atrocities with a flabbergasted Emma Alberici. So you wouldn't expect such a simple thing as acknowledging the outrageousness of such an act as shooting down unarmed civilians at a publishing house. I believe that one of them even described the event as a "cure". Such behaviour is despicable, and so its inevitable, unfortunately, that when they do come out and make legitimate points - as I believe they are doing here, albeit tactlessly - then its no surprise that it gets missed.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?
Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed 11 (55.0%) Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops 4 (20.0%) Something else 5 (25.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: freediver on: Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:43pm »