Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam against free speech?

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #645 - Jan 28^th, 2015 at 11:13pm You see?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #646 - Jan 28^th, 2015 at 11:46pm

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:27pm:

FD will parrot that same quote tirelessly for the next 12 months - without once stopping to think about what they actually mean by "freedom".

Certainly not freedom, hey Gandalf? What they really mean is the long winded rant you made up about holocaust denial and whether they ought to be obligued to have the correct emotional response. Right? Because we all know what makes these lunatics angry. Not Muhammed cartoons, but perceived unfair expectations regarding their response to the cartoons. And being labelled a freedom hater merely because you hate freedom. They really hate that one.

By golly I think thats it FD! By freedom they actually mean freedom - brilliant!

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #647 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 7:55am

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:27pm:

FD will parrot that same quote tirelessly for the next 12 months - without once stopping to think about what they actually mean by "freedom".

What DO they mean? That their belief about Mohammed sets a limit to what I am allowed to think or say about Mohammed.
Well, they can stick that up their jumper.

Just because you have a set of beliefs about Mohammed does not curtail my right to have and to express a completely different set of beliefs about him. Your freedom to say what you think or believe does not trump mine in any way, not even one of us is offended.
That's freedom of thought and expression.

Your freedom to say what you think resides upon your knowledge. If you endlessly parrot the same thing for 14 years, you’re in danger of being read as a boring old boy without much to say.

Sir Reggie, of course, would be proud.

Which, of course, is neither here nor there as far as freedom of thought and expression are concerned.

Not to mention that Muslims have been parroting the same thing for a hundred times longer, for 1400 years.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49091 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #648 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:07am Gandalf, how do you go from Muslims accusing us of being arrogant for expecting them to accept our right to mock Muhammed to Muslims actually supporting our right to mock Muhammed?
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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #649 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:11am

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 7:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 7:15pm:

Quote:

Its also attacking muslims who speak out against people offending their religion as freedom haters

One more time Gandalf. How is that an incorrect interpretation?

"We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow"

And how is defending your religion against the principles of Freeeeedom/freedom?

They were not saying anything like that.

They were saying "we reject your freedom".

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49091 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #650 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 12:22pm Gandalf reads and aweful lot into what they really mean by 'our freedom'. Basically they mean everything except our freedom.
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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #651 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 12:28pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

Gandalf, how do you go from Muslims accusing us of being arrogant for expecting them to accept our right to mock Muhammed to Muslims actually supporting our right to mock Muhammed?

All good questions, FD. You're free to answer this one:

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 7:30pm:

...How is defending your religion against the principles of Freeeeedom/freedom?

Care to give it a go?

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #652 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 1:13pm

Soren wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 7:55am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:27pm:

FD will parrot that same quote tirelessly for the next 12 months - without once stopping to think about what they actually mean by "freedom".

What DO they mean? That their belief about Mohammed sets a limit to what I am allowed to think or say about Mohammed.
Well, they can stick that up their jumper.

Just because you have a set of beliefs about Mohammed does not curtail my right to have and to express a completely different set of beliefs about him. Your freedom to say what you think or believe does not trump mine in any way, not even one of us is offended.
That's freedom of thought and expression.

Your freedom to say what you think resides upon your knowledge. If you endlessly parrot the same thing for 14 years, you’re in danger of being read as a boring old boy without much to say.

Sir Reggie, of course, would be proud.

Which, of course, is neither here nor there as far as freedom of thought and expression are concerned.

Not exactly. Freedom of expression is a response to the Scientific Revolution. The godfathers of the Enlightenment weren't proposing free speech as a strategy to release a Pandora's Box of lies, propaganda and mass delusion. They advocated free speech to make society more rational, not less.

Freud, as you may know, was most disheartened with the trajectory of Western reason towards the end of his life, as was George Orwell. For Freud, it was the rise of Nazism. For Orwell, it was the spread of Stalinism. The ideas of both thinkers were hijacked by the propaganda industry they warned us against.

Free speech is not about an endless tirade of abuse, or a constantly repeated litany of lies. The scientific method free speech is allied with is about the construction of truth. Truth is not a product as such, but a process. Free speech is a dialogue. One-way proclamations are not free speech, they're totalitarian. The broadcast mass media is one of the most effective tools of social control. The medium is the message. Freud warned us of this long before Marshall McLuhan.

Freedom of speech requires freedom of thought. Talking out of your arse is not free speech.

Mind you, it does produce a lovely strain of stool - as every schoolboy knows.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #653 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 1:32pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

Gandalf, how do you go from Muslims accusing us of being arrogant for expecting them to accept our right to mock Muhammed to Muslims actually supporting our right to mock Muhammed?

All good questions, FD. You're free to answer this one:

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 7:30pm:

...How is defending your religion against the principles of Freeeeedom/freedom?

Care to give it a go?

But you have to admit K, at least FD doesn't read an awful lot into the meaning of the word freedom - its just a very simple and obvious case of them wanting to censor any insults to islam. Its so simple and obvious that they don't even say it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #654 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 4:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

Gandalf, how do you go from Muslims accusing us of being arrogant for expecting them to accept our right to mock Muhammed to Muslims actually supporting our right to mock Muhammed?

All good questions, FD. You're free to answer this one:

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 7:30pm:

...How is defending your religion against the principles of Freeeeedom/freedom?

Care to give it a go?

But you have to admit K, at least FD doesn't read an awful lot into the meaning of the word freedom - its just a very simple and obvious case of them wanting to censor any insults to islam. Its so simple and obvious that they don't even say it.

Well, I have to admit, I thought this myself after seeing the footage on TV. When I read the poster describing the stated purpose of the rally, I got quite a different message.

Now I have no doubt a lot of Muslims at that rally would like to ban the image of Muhammed in the non-Muslim media. But I have no evidence that those who attended or organized last week's rally have actually proposed this.

Y's 2012 "behead all those who insult the prophet" and "freedom of expression go to hell" protest banners were nowhere to be seen. And Abu, as usual, has been silent on the issue.

I was offended at the perceived insensitivity of calling for a ban on the image of Muhammed after the recent killings in Paris. And do you know? I do think I have this right.

A rally to defend Islam against a hostile media, however, is a completely different story - as is a rally in support of a prophet.

Any advocate of Freeeedom who wants to ban such gatherings, while simultaneously defending the right to defame, slur and tell porkie pies about Muslims, is a devout hypocrite.

As is any Muslim who wants critical or satirical commentary on Islam - or Muhammed - shut down.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #655 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 6:51pm

Quote:

is a devout hypocrite.
As is any Muslim who wants critical or satirical commentary on Islam - or Muhammed - shut down.

How so?

Gandalf, if Muslims insist we are arrogant to expect them to accept our right to mock Muhammed, how is this anything other than a rejection of that right and opposition to freedom of speech?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #656 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 6:58pm That is a rejection of freedom FD. No one said that though, as far as I'm aware.
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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #657 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:32pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 6:51pm:

Quote:

is a devout hypocrite.
As is any Muslim who wants critical or satirical commentary on Islam - or Muhammed - shut down.

How so?

I asked you first. Feel free to answer why people defending their religion against decent white people everywhere go against the principles of Freeeedom.

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« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:47pm by Karnal »

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #658 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 6:58pm:

That is a rejection of freedom FD. No one said that though, as far as I'm aware.

It’s incredibly arrogant to criticize things you know nothing about, and make up porkie pies to distract from.facts you would know something about if you bothered to check.

And I should know. I’ve displayed such arrogance in this very thread.

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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #659 - Jan 29^th, 2015 at 9:28pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 7:55am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2015 at 9:27pm:

FD will parrot that same quote tirelessly for the next 12 months - without once stopping to think about what they actually mean by "freedom".

What DO they mean? That their belief about Mohammed sets a limit to what I am allowed to think or say about Mohammed.
Well, they can stick that up their jumper.

Just because you have a set of beliefs about Mohammed does not curtail my right to have and to express a completely different set of beliefs about him. Your freedom to say what you think or believe does not trump mine in any way, not even one of us is offended.
That's freedom of thought and expression.

Your freedom to say what you think resides upon your knowledge. If you endlessly parrot the same thing for 14 years, you’re in danger of being read as a boring old boy without much to say.

Sir Reggie, of course, would be proud.

Which, of course, is neither here nor there as far as freedom of thought and expression are concerned.

Not exactly. Freedom of expression is a response to the Scientific Revolution. The godfathers of the Enlightenment weren't proposing free speech as a strategy to release a Pandora's Box of lies, propaganda and mass delusion. They advocated free speech to make society more rational, not less.

Freud, as you may know, was most disheartened with the trajectory of Western reason towards the end of his life, as was George Orwell. For Freud, it was the rise of Nazism. For Orwell, it was the spread of Stalinism. The ideas of both thinkers were hijacked by the propaganda industry they warned us against.

Free speech is not about an endless tirade of abuse, or a constantly repeated litany of lies. The scientific method free speech is allied with is about the construction of truth. Truth is not a product as such, but a process. Free speech is a dialogue. One-way proclamations are not free speech, they're totalitarian. The broadcast mass media is one of the most effective tools of social control. The medium is the message. Freud warned us of this long before Marshall McLuhan.

Freedom of speech requires freedom of thought. Talking out of your arse is not free speech.

Mind you, it does produce a lovely strain of stool - as every schoolboy knows.

As always, you start well and then veer into incoherence. Islam is where pre-Reformation, pre-Scientific Revolution Christianity was (an never mind pre-Enlightenment).
The dialogue, as the Charlie massacre shows, is not happening. You say 'the pen is mightier than the sword", they shoot you dead. Islam is a pre-modern religion, untouched by reformation, science, enlightenment. Not only untouched but actively, diligently, determinedly against these "phenomenologies of the spirit'.

Islam lives in a completely different mental and intellectual world. It is not possible to accept the literal truth of the Koran and to be a fully functional member of a Western liberal, secular society - see Danish cartoons, Rushdie, Charlie, and the daily screaming protests against freedom of expression in the Islamic world.

Islam does not deserve either respect or special treatment simply because it has managed to resist Reformation, Scientific Revolution, Enlightenment, secularisation and every other development that has led to modernity and its self-concious self-examination, post-modernity and whatever it is you call what came after that (sense).

The main point. The Muslim/Islamic mental and psychic landscape is completely unmapped by Freud, Orwell, McLuhan. They all come as part of the development of the Western intellectual and psychic trajectory.
Islam is not part of that. Killing people over cartoons demonstrates that. In the Western framework of thinking, only psychopaths or other mentally disturbed people will kill you for a joke. Muslims are not psychopaths. They are Muslims. But they will kill you for a joke

So you riff on the mass media and comparison to the West - which DID go through not only Reformation and the scientific revolution but Enlightenment as well - is stupid and ignorant, so irrelevant.

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Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?
Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed 11 (55.0%) Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops 4 (20.0%) Something else 5 (25.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: freediver on: Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:43pm »