NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 1:11pm:


All of which occured under the guidance of the Olypians. Olypians are not Christians... so the point on homosexuality is lost. And whilst it is that Christian theology finds its rationality in greek philosophical reasonings... those reasoning were not of homosexuality, but rather the stratification of society which sees the educated classes as the ruling classes.

In Ancient Athens, and not necessarily greece in general, sex with boys was tollerated. The relationship had for the adult certain responsibilities including education of that male child. Indeed, many a parent, when there boy was of the age, would pay a tutor to take their boy, knowing full well that a sexual relationship would occur. For these parents though, it was the only way they had of improving their families position in society... and family was important... pater familus was a greek concept and actuality before it became a roman way of life.

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Then enter the Seculartarians some 2 millenia or more latter. Seculartarians are not Christians, but rather Humanitarians, in the main. They have no issues with Homosexuality.... unlike the Abrahamic Faiths.

Public Schools are not Religous schools and indeed in law can never become religous schools, so again the reference to Christians is lost.

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Linking the sexual acts of the ancient athenians with modern pedaphilia is disengenuous Helian... and you are better than this.

Homosexuality is not by definition pedaphilia as well you know. Pediaphilia can result in men persuing little girls or little boys, or women persuing little boys or little girls. Pediaphilia then is not a gender preference as is Homosexuality, Hetrosexuality and Bisexuality.

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I am not disputing the idea that pagen blood laws permiate the Albanian Muslim Rural Traditions. I appreciate that they are not of the Koran. None the less, pagen blood laws permiate the Albanian Muslim rural traditions.

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If something is forbidden, then a punishment is also afforded and enacted where the forbidden is done, to deter that which is forbidden.

For example, in most societies Murder is forbidden and a range of punishments can and are applied where it is that a person has murdered.

What then, is Islam doing about these pagen Muslims who disobey to do that which is forbidden? Do other Muslim Nations have an embargo of some kind upon Albania? Have Albanians been cast out of the Islamic fold? Has anything been done to discourage this most terrible of pagen laws?

If not why not? How can something be forbidden and not punished when it occurs?

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I think your claim that they are pagan is a bit of a stretch. The laws themselves probably come from a period when there wasn't a rule of law, and the people had to form tribal councils and so forth in order to bring about any kind of 'justice'. You can say they are primitive, but I don't think it's relevant to say they're pagan. I'm sure some pagan societies had rule of law, and deplored vigilantism.

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Since the Islamic system ceased being implemented in 1924 (check your history books), who's going to punish them? If the Islamic Caliphate were in existence, I doubt they'd be subscribing to these primitive laws.

A state system which isn't implemented anywhere on earth at the moment, can't punish anything.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 1:09am:


Certainly I am arguing from my own subjective point of view, but I certainly do not see it as inconsistant to say I support the death penalty for certain crimes but not for others. I have said that the penalty should match the crime. I have no problem whatsoever with the state killing a murderer but that it should be painless. I see no mileage in torture for no reason. Similarly I would not accept the death penalty for someone who steals a car for a joyride or sleeps with the next door neihbours husband. That is my opinion, yes.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 1:09am:


I really don't see how this position could make me a hypocrite, I would appreciate your disection of my points to show me.

To suggest banishment as an alternative to death for adultery was simply to illustrate some things that I still might not agree with, but are more acceptable to my sensibilities and concept of justice. Mine. But I consider myself more a humanist and hope for a continued evolution of human interactions between themselves and the world.

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As I said before, I don't think any religion including atheism should be blamed for anything or should be given credit for anything. What is the rational of a blame?

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 21^st, 2008 at 1:01pm:

Homosexuality and paedophilia transcend religious affiliation. They occur in all societies notwithstanding that they are specifically prohibited within religious texts. While neither Islam nor Christianity can be accused of promoting or approving of them, they are practised even sometimes by those who claim to be devout Christians or Muslims.

The 4000 or so men that the Iranians have executed so far, for being gay may have disagreed with you Abu.

It is bizarre that anyone in our modern world would even try and pretend that homosexuality is primarily learned, rather than innate.

What is truly obscene is that primitive boy botherers would be filled with such self loathing as to create a religious system which encourages the murder of people whose sexuality they find difficult to accept.

Abu, I don't believe adultery is a crime at all. It may be a character flaw, it may be someone who is not in a loving relationship, it may be ground for determining who gets custody of children etc.

The alternatives I offered were simply that. That's why I made the point that they are punishments that I might not agree to but find them more acceptable than execution or imprisionment.

Ultimately it is up to your Faith. I would be curious how many would continue to participate in the Faith, if they were shown many of the good things that progressive Western scoiety has to offer and if they could be assured safe passage from their current situation. I dare say, less than what someone in the West may imagine but more than what the Muslim community would claim.