abu_rashid wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2008 at 2:24pm:

Islam cannot be held accountable for the variances in innate human predisposition at all. I know very little about the Islamic Caliphate but I would bet that the occurrence of homosexuality or any other form of sexual orientation or sexual perversion occurred at much the same rate in both societies that implemented the Islamic state system and those that didn't. Religion per se has little or no control over the circumstances of one's genetic composition or congenital predisposition (where it doesn't experiment in eugenics), it can only influence what the adherent does about it.

helian,
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The Caliphate is the Islamic state system. It is a state that is 100% ideologically based on Islam, that implements the Islamic Shari'ah and that is a single, non-ethnically-aligned state for all Muslims. It is detailed and prescribed in the Islamic texts, and existed since it's establishment by Muhammad (pbuh) in the 7th. century, from the date of Hijrah (ie. Muslims begin their calenders from the establishment of the Caliphate) until 1924, when it was officially abolished by Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk).

Since Islam is a complete state ideology, a state that doesn't implement it, can't really be presented as an example of the Islamic ideology. But we have 1350 years of continual implementation of the state system, if you need to examine what occurred during it's implementation.

People like mozza (as he expressed in his post above) consider this to be an attempt to avoid scrutiny, but the simple fact is it would be illogical to hold an ideology accountable by the actions of states in which it is not the ruling ideology. And since we have 1350 years of implementation, we have plenty of example to examine anyway, so it's not like it can't be examined and held accountable for what it does and doesn't do.

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Islam is much more than what you probably consider a simple religion to be. And Islam has had a lot of success with remoulding people and deterring them from succumbing to base desires. A good example of this is alcoholism, which some would consider to be caused by genetic predisposition also. Islam pretty much wiped it out of society. Although isolated instances of alcoholism did exist, the society largely became 'dry' so to speak. I'd say likewise with homosexuality, although I'm sure you're going to insist it must've existed at roughly the same levels as it does in Western society today, as I mentioned above, just because you suppose that, doesn't make it reality. You can examine the Islamic records, and find it just wasn't the case. You claim it was just merely hidden, but that's just conjecture, and such conjecture simply cannot be quantified.

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Not really. Islamically, we would consider such 'desires' to be a test from God, like we have tests about many other things. And we choose to ignore and repel them, doesn't mean they still exist, as they were merely whispers. It's only when people form this whole culture based around said desires and claim them to be a 'lifestyle' etc. that you consider them to be repressed yet innate tendancies.

We consider it to something akin to alcoholism, or a bad temper, some people might be more disposed to it, but they have the choice on whether to control and expunge the disposition, or to allow it to dominate their lives.

Well done helian, I think you have summed it up perfectly. I wish I had put the case forward with such common sense.

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Right, so you believe in a world where window breakers should be free to break windows? To run around marching down the streets proclaiming window breaking to be a normal and acceptable part of human society?

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Same goes for any crime. That's why we have rule of law, not a utopian paradise in which laws have been abolished and everyone just follows the rules out of mutual love and respect.

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I don't think these things can be completely eradicated from people's nature, so that they won't occur, but generally people become conditioned to and cultured for them to be suppressed enough. This is what religion and good law hopes to achieve in the long run. It's never a complete solution, and if the state is incapacitated and unable to maintain law and order, then yes some people can revert back to old ways, but generally overall the society should have become accustomed to living by the standards they've adopted.

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As with the Pakistan example, i'm not particuarly interested in what Mr. Ahmadinejad does in his country. It's not a Caliphate and is therefore not representative of the Islamic ideology.

mozzaok,

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Throughout the whole 1350 year history of the Caliphate, I don't think they ever executed that many. Yet Iran took only 30 years to do that?

I guess that indicates that the Islamic system is far more effective than the Iranian system.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 12:40pm:


Where's the evidence!!!

If people are doing it out of sight, in their own homes, how have you stopped it?

You get exclusively homosexual rams in flocks of sheep.

Quite clearly God designed it this way.

Personally I've not been aroused by men or lusted after any. But if you have good for you.

My country does lots of things I don't agree with. I don't have blind faith for any doctrine.

Rams are animals, we are animals, rams do exactly what comes to them naturally, responding to instinct, therefore, God condones homosexuality, men are just scared of it so they say God is against it.

Also, there is scientific proof for homosexuality not being a choice, in humans.

Muslims are big believers in science right?

You said God permitted you to be tempted by such things, it was not a great leap of logic for me to assume that maybe you perhaps have been tempted in the past. Maybe you want it outlawed because you are scared of it and your natural urges?

There are places in Australia where some degree of public nudity is acceptable.

We aren't animals abu? What are we, plants? All creatures great and small...

Well if God makes it natural for you to feel a certain way, then it is natural. An urge to kill is not natural, it doesn't have scientific basis, that comes from the heart not the body.

What if you had a profoundly retarded homosexual person who was placed in a situation where they were permitted and encouraged to engage in a same sex encounter? Would they be making a conscious choice or would they be acting on more primal base instincts?

Because we are so scientifically advanced these days, next time you want to get your wife pregnant, use science, not your body. It will completely eliminate the act and you would not have to lust after your wife. But then again, I'm sure you, just like every other animal on the planet, enjoys acting on their base instincts to engage in sexual acts.

I don't think I'm livestock. I was just showing you where God has created homosexuality.