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sex with animals (Read 18425 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #30 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:27pm
 
Jordan,
Quote:
There you go, deflecting to other religions, when are you going to get it that I couldn't give a stuff about other religions either.


Is 'deflection' about the only word you can manage to utter whenever you've really got no decent argument to present (which seems to be quite frequently)?

There's no deflection at all in my post, because I clearly stated an answer to your question. I just added this fact, to indicate to you that ritual purification is not peculiar to Islam, as you obviously seemed to think it is, and that it's a practise of most religions.

Quote:
The fact that if you pass wind you have to clean your face etc before praying remains hysterical and nonsensical to me, regardless of the fact that it may be a spiritual cleansing


Since you don't really appreciate anything sacred, that doesn't surprise me.
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jordan484
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #31 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:30pm
 
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Since you don't really appreciate anything sacred, that doesn't surprise me.

I appreciate plenty of things that are sacred....just not the same things as you. But don't let your arrogance stop you from assuming something so wrong.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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freediver
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #32 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:31pm
 
It is an odd mixture of the sacred and petty, trivial things. Having to keep track of when you last farted would be an irritating burden. Why not just insist that people cleanse their spirit before praying? Linking it to farting implies some kind of causal relationship - that farting dirties the spirit.
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #33 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:39pm
 
freediver,

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If it has never occurred, why would Ayatollah Khomeini go into so much detail about it?


It may have happened amongst the Shi'a, no idea. I doubt it happened under the Caliphate of the Muslims though, and that's why we probably have no ruling on it.

Again, I suggest to you, that you should find a reference to this supposed text by Khomeini from a Shi'a source. A joke website doesn't count as a very authentic source of such information. And when you do, quiz Malik about it. As I've stated, I am not going to defend nor explain Khomeini for anything he's said. If he indeed said those things, then he should be condemned as a despicable deviant.

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Why would the Shiits have specific rules about washing afterwards?


From what you quoted it doesn't seem like there's any specific rules about washing afterwards. As already mentioned, any ejaculation necessitates a bath/shower (Ghusl), no matter what the circumstances, even if it was caused by an alien from the Delta Quadrant. The only strange thing is that they actually mentioned this abomination specifically, and that you'd need to take up with them. I don't believe in Shi'ism, I'm not a fan of Iran or any Shi'a nation/institution/belief, so can't really help you, sorry.

Quote:
Claiming that it never occurs in any society is a bit naive.


So you think it exists in all societies? Strange. Anyway if it did, there'd be a ruling on it. If you can find it from and legitimate Islamic text, then feel free to bring it forth.

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But if that actually happened, they would have to make case law based on old rules?


Yes, analogical deduction.
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #34 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:41pm
 

If you can, please use more respectful terms.

As mentioned, there's many things which cause minor ritual impurity, why do you both seem to have this school-boy infatuation with only the passing of wind from the anus?
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jordan484
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #35 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:44pm
 
All true Aussie boys.....and subsequently men, have an infatuation with farting. It's funny. And it's a part of life. It's a funny part of life.
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #36 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:49pm
 

Thankfully most leave it behind when they transition from primary school to high school.

Some unfortunately never get over it, the old grandpa who always ask you to pull his finger... I can envision you becoming one of them Jordan.
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freediver
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #37 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:55pm
 
As already mentioned, any ejaculation necessitates a bath/shower (Ghusl), no matter what the circumstances, even if it was caused by an alien from the Delta Quadrant.

Doesn't it also cover what happens if you don't ejaculate. That is, it is the act of having sex with an animal that requires you to wash your face, not the ejaculation part?

As mentioned, there's many things which cause minor ritual impurity, why do you both seem to have this school-boy infatuation with only the passing of wind from the anus?

What about burping?

The Psychology of Sexual Orientation, Behavior, and Identity

http://books.google.com.au/books?
id=5IdO6wisyUUC&pg=PA449&lpg=PA44
9&dq=Koran+bestiality&source=web&
ots=iVE3AxRT8N&sig=_TVtAPK7xvjNFi
Ik-_Lx6GITYJk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_
result&resnum=3&ct=result

p449

Homosexuality is not particularly condemned in the Koran.

Even Bestiality might be tolerated if it served the purpose of preventing the person from committing a greater crime.

Cross dressing was institutionalised

Generally, Islam emphasized tolerance towards sexual peccadilloes (but not adultery which was a crime against property).
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jordan484
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #38 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 6:32pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:49pm:
Thankfully most leave it behind when they transition from primary school to high school.

Some unfortunately never get over it, the old grandpa who always ask you to pull his finger... I can envision you becoming one of them Jordan.

Have you been to a high school recently? You're kidding yourself. And I don't care if the worst thing I do as an old man is ask my grandkids to pull my finger. It's harmless and it's funny. I'm just glad religion hasn't sucked the humour out of me.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #39 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 6:44pm
 
freediver,

Quote:
Doesn't it also cover what happens if you don't ejaculate. That is, it is the act of having sex with an animal that requires you to wash your face, not the ejaculation part?


As I said, ask a Shi'a, I don't believe in their books, so I'm not going to be explaining them for you. But obviously if someone had committed such an abomination, then they'd obviously be ritually impure, for it is a disgusting lewd act, and even coming into contact with the saliva of a dog necessitates making ablution, so let's say for the sake of argument it is required, that doesn't really mean much. Just means a recognition that a person has become impure. If it's in relation to the supposed quote of Khomeini, then that's something else, but as I said, you should verify that before considering it legit, as it comes from a joke site.

Quote:
What about burping?


What about it? Does it necessitate wudhu? No.

Quote:
Homosexuality is not particularly condemned in the Koran.


Yes it is. Also note that the Qur'an is not the only textual source of Islamic rulings.

Quote:
Even Bestiality might be tolerated if it served the purpose of preventing the person from committing a greater crime.


It's mentioned in the book about aliens from the Delta Quadrant.

Quote:
Cross dressing was institutionalised


Because Muslims wear long flowing robes?  Grin

Quote:
Generally, Islam emphasized tolerance towards sexual peccadilloes


It's quite ironic that one minute  Islam is attacked for being too harsh against sexual deviants, and the next minute we see (usually the same people) trying desperately to prove Islam is tolerant of sexual deviancies... What a joke.

Come on freediver, have you run out of arguments against Islam, that this nonsense is the ebst you can come up with? Really, sex with animals, tolerance of homosexuality and cross dressing? Bottom of the barrel if you ask me. But scrape away as you please, just keep it nice.
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #40 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 6:50pm
 
Because Muslims wear long flowing robes?

There is an explanation in the link I gave. I cannot copy and paste the text for some reason.

You asked for a more reliable source about Islam and Bestiality. I gave you one. It all creates a very strong impression that Islam condones bestiality. That's why I'm asking you if Islam does proscribe a punishment for it.

Perhaps, rather than seeing it as an attack on Islam, you should see it as a simple question about Islam and a chance to demonstrate the righteousness of it's laws.
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #41 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 6:53pm
 
Quote:
You asked for a more reliable source about Islam and Bestiality.


Shi'a books and orientalist fantasies don't amount to a reliable source in my eyes, sorry.

Quote:
It all creates a very strong impression that Islam condones bestiality.


All it creates the very strong impression of is that you're desperate for an argument against Islam.
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #42 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:01pm
 
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There is an explanation in the link I gave.


Do you mean this: "Cross-dressing was institutionalized in some areas of the Islamic world to perform the women's role in public"??

In which areas? When? And what exactly is meant by "To perform the women's role in public"? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This, like the other claims made there are just nonsense, and that's obviously why it's devoid of any references to actual Islamic texts/historical records. It's just hearsay. I can write a book about Eskimoes claiming they used to wear pink tutus under their cold-weather gear, but it doesn't really mean much if I don't have any actual source or evidence to back it up. This is the difference between scholarship and rubbish.

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I cannot copy and paste the text for some reason.


Umm, that would be because it's copyrighted Smiley
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #43 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:03pm
 
I don't believe the Shiits and the Sunnis are so different that one could condone bestiality and the other forbid it. I think it is a far more reasonable interpretation that they have the same take on the issue which is based on the same book. It has nothing to do with Shiit/Sunni. It's about Islam. The fact that it originally came from a Shiit site is not evidence that it is exclusive to the Shiits, unless you want to argue that bestiality is in fact a point of contention between Shiits and Sunnis. But you deleted my direct question about that for some reason, perhaps to maintain this red herring that it is a Shiit issue. Any quote about any religion is going to come from a website associate with some faction of that religion. It is not reasonable to automatically assume that the interpretation is specific to that faction, especially where it is part of a broad outline of the religion rather than what sets the faction apart.
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abu_rashid
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Re: sex with animals
Reply #44 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:04pm
 
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Perhaps, rather than seeing it as an attack on Islam, you should see it as a simple question about Islam and a chance to demonstrate the righteousness of it's laws.


Firstly your manner in posting it has made it quite obvious you're seeking to tarnish Islam with it. Not merely ask a question. If you were just asking a question, you would've realised about 20 posts back that it's clearly not something allowed in Islam. In fact I think you know that, you just think it's fun to slander others and make some lively debate.
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