Wudhu = ablution (minor purification required before each prayer)
Ghusl - bath/shower (major purification, required after sex/menstruation)

Sex with animals?? Are you normal?

Does this prove my point that de-sensitising nudity has driven you to deviant acts/thoughts?

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I have never come across a ruling, as I doubt Muslims would've even stooped to such a despicable level of depravity. As I said, this kind of thing might occur in the West where some people have become so de-sensitisied to the normal sexual practises that they develop fetishes about unnatural things like this, but I don't think it's ever been an issue for Muslims.

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I don't really know enough about the Shi'a to know if it's a genuine site, but it looks to be. Would be best off asking Malik about it, since I am not Shi'a and therefore don't follow their teachings.

As I said, I'm not familar with their rulings.

But even reading what you posted, I don't see anywhere that it says this abomination is permissible, in fact it says "God forbid". But it is troubling why they even had to go into the issue to begin with.

It is also mentioned in Tahrirolvasyleh book by Ayatollah Khomeini:

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http://g33klite.com/index.php/facts/general/299-the-controversial-tahrirolvasyleh-book

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Firstly we need to be clear, this appears to be a Shi'a website, and even then it is an Ithna Ashari website, which are a sub-sect of the Shi'a (albeit the largest one). To make a claim about Islam, based on a website by a tiny sect, who are clearly astray from the mainstream is just ridiculous. Please don't use the term "Islam", use the term "Shi'a" if you must, as my religion has nothing to do with this nonsense you're proclaiming.

Kinda like me trashing all Christians, just because Jim Jones was a looney leader of some little sect that claimed to be Christian. Or considering all Atheists to be represented by Communism.

Also, the page you linked to is only the rulings on purification, of course it wouldn't list the punishments, as that'd most likely be in seperate chapters of the book (or most likely a whole book devoted to hadd (legal punishments)), if their books are organised the same as those of the mainstream Muslims. I'd suggest you ask a Shi'a what the punishment is, before claiming they don't have a punishment for it.

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Do you see any other punishments mentioned in the same chapter? Or even in the same book? Do you think that chapter or that book represents the whole of their belief or something?

To make a claim about Islam, based on a website by a tiny sect, who are clearly astray from the mainstream is just ridiculous.

That's why I brought the matter to you, grand master Abu. Please tell us what the appropriate punishment is for sex with animals. I did not make any claims. I asked questions.

as my religion has nothing to do with this nonsense you're proclaiming

Are you saying that Islam does not proscribe ablutions after sex with animals, or any other punishment?

I'd suggest you ask a Shi'a what the punishment is

But you just finished explaining that it wouldn't tell me what Islam is anyway.

Is Ayatollah Khomeini a respected Muslim?

Do you have to touch a woman's skin, or do you have to wash your ears if you merely brush up against her tent in the market place? Does it only refer to humans of the opposite sex?

[moderated: Please read the forum guidelines]

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It must be skin-skin contact. The washing doesn't have to be done after the act, it has to be done before you pray.

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Yes. And more specifically only to mature women, who are marriageable.

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It is a ritual/spiritual purification, after all that's what the word Ablution means isn't it? English language is not your strong point?

For further inormation, perhaps you can check this Wiki article on Ritual Purification.

I didn't have a problem with the word, just thought it was odd you washed the wrong parts, but whatever floats your boat, there are far stranger things with Islam.

Yes I noticed that. It took me a while to remember what it was.

Jordan,
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There's no 'wrong' parts because it's not a cleansing of physical impurities, it's a cleansing of spiritual impurities. You should read the link I gave, it explains that it does not necessarily correspond to physical cleansing. Also this is something that exists in most religions, including Christianity and Judaism.

No, I told you that I could not find a ruling on it, as it has probably never occurred in Islamic society before.

Telling you to ask a Shi'a is not a deflection, because the original document you linked to is quite clearly what looks to be a Shi'a book, and the other dubious quote by tallowood is also Shi'a related.

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I can't answer the question if there's no answer to give. Just like I can't answer if a Muslim has to pay blood money if he accidentally killed an alien from the Delta Quadrant, because no such ruling exists.

No, I told you that I could not find a ruling on it, as it has probably never occurred in Islamic society before.

If it has never occurred, why would Ayatollah Khomeini go into so much detail about it? Why would the Shiits have specific rules about washing afterwards? Claiming that it never occurs in any society is a bit naive.

Just like I can't answer if a Muslim has to pay blood money if he accidentally killed an alien from the Delta Quadrant, because no such ruling exists.

But if that actually happened, they would have to make case law based on old rules?

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I appreciate plenty of things that are sacred....just not the same things as you. But don't let your arrogance stop you from assuming something so wrong.

freediver,

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It may have happened amongst the Shi'a, no idea. I doubt it happened under the Caliphate of the Muslims though, and that's why we probably have no ruling on it.

Again, I suggest to you, that you should find a reference to this supposed text by Khomeini from a Shi'a source. A joke website doesn't count as a very authentic source of such information. And when you do, quiz Malik about it. As I've stated, I am not going to defend nor explain Khomeini for anything he's said. If he indeed said those things, then he should be condemned as a despicable deviant.

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From what you quoted it doesn't seem like there's any specific rules about washing afterwards. As already mentioned, any ejaculation necessitates a bath/shower (Ghusl), no matter what the circumstances, even if it was caused by an alien from the Delta Quadrant. The only strange thing is that they actually mentioned this abomination specifically, and that you'd need to take up with them. I don't believe in Shi'ism, I'm not a fan of Iran or any Shi'a nation/institution/belief, so can't really help you, sorry.

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So you think it exists in all societies? Strange. Anyway if it did, there'd be a ruling on it. If you can find it from and legitimate Islamic text, then feel free to bring it forth.

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Yes, analogical deduction.

All true Aussie boys.....and subsequently men, have an infatuation with farting. It's funny. And it's a part of life. It's a funny part of life.

As already mentioned, any ejaculation necessitates a bath/shower (Ghusl), no matter what the circumstances, even if it was caused by an alien from the Delta Quadrant.

Doesn't it also cover what happens if you don't ejaculate. That is, it is the act of having sex with an animal that requires you to wash your face, not the ejaculation part?

As mentioned, there's many things which cause minor ritual impurity, why do you both seem to have this school-boy infatuation with only the passing of wind from the anus?

What about burping?

The Psychology of Sexual Orientation, Behavior, and Identity

http://books.google.com.au/books?
id=5IdO6wisyUUC&pg=PA449&lpg=PA44
9&dq=Koran+bestiality&source=web&
ots=iVE3AxRT8N&sig=_TVtAPK7xvjNFi
Ik-_Lx6GITYJk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_
result&resnum=3&ct=result

p449

Homosexuality is not particularly condemned in the Koran.

Even Bestiality might be tolerated if it served the purpose of preventing the person from committing a greater crime.

Cross dressing was institutionalised

Generally, Islam emphasized tolerance towards sexual peccadilloes (but not adultery which was a crime against property).

freediver,

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As I said, ask a Shi'a, I don't believe in their books, so I'm not going to be explaining them for you. But obviously if someone had committed such an abomination, then they'd obviously be ritually impure, for it is a disgusting lewd act, and even coming into contact with the saliva of a dog necessitates making ablution, so let's say for the sake of argument it is required, that doesn't really mean much. Just means a recognition that a person has become impure. If it's in relation to the supposed quote of Khomeini, then that's something else, but as I said, you should verify that before considering it legit, as it comes from a joke site.

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What about it? Does it necessitate wudhu? No.

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Yes it is. Also note that the Qur'an is not the only textual source of Islamic rulings.

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It's mentioned in the book about aliens from the Delta Quadrant.

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Because Muslims wear long flowing robes? 

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It's quite ironic that one minute  Islam is attacked for being too harsh against sexual deviants, and the next minute we see (usually the same people) trying desperately to prove Islam is tolerant of sexual deviancies... What a joke.

Come on freediver, have you run out of arguments against Islam, that this nonsense is the ebst you can come up with? Really, sex with animals, tolerance of homosexuality and cross dressing? Bottom of the barrel if you ask me. But scrape away as you please, just keep it nice.

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Shi'a books and orientalist fantasies don't amount to a reliable source in my eyes, sorry.

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All it creates the very strong impression of is that you're desperate for an argument against Islam.

I don't believe the Shiits and the Sunnis are so different that one could condone bestiality and the other forbid it. I think it is a far more reasonable interpretation that they have the same take on the issue which is based on the same book. It has nothing to do with Shiit/Sunni. It's about Islam. The fact that it originally came from a Shiit site is not evidence that it is exclusive to the Shiits, unless you want to argue that bestiality is in fact a point of contention between Shiits and Sunnis. But you deleted my direct question about that for some reason, perhaps to maintain this red herring that it is a Shiit issue. Any quote about any religion is going to come from a website associate with some faction of that religion. It is not reasonable to automatically assume that the interpretation is specific to that faction, especially where it is part of a broad outline of the religion rather than what sets the faction apart.

Firstly your manner in posting it has made it quite obvious you're seeking to tarnish Islam with it.

Actually, that is down to your response. I psoted a simple question. You could have chosen to see it as a simple question with a simple answer, but instead you chose to get wound up about it.

If you were just asking a question, you would've realised about 20 posts back that it's clearly not something allowed in Islam.

Why would I deduce that, when the evidence points the other way? Should I assume it is forbidden just because you insist it is disgusting?

So Shiits and Sunnis do differ on their rulings regarding bestiality?

What about masturbation?

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Yes forbidden, as  I said, anything outside of husband and wife is forbidden.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 7:18pm:

Oh you poor bastard, that's why you're so cranky! It all makes sense to me now!

easel wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 8:08pm:


Don't be silly. Muslims don't do that. If they did, they would have a law forbidding it,

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 7:18pm:


Are you joking? What is the punishment?

easel - i tend to agree with you.
cant really quote it for you, but that is my impression.

mind you, i "sin" on a few things.

typical xian   

locutius wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:27pm:


I don't moderate in here.

A vet, if he went in up to the shoulder.

locutius,

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The crude latter.
If you want to ask, ask in a tasteful and serious manner, leave the crude jokes at the door, check the forum guidelines if unsure.

easel wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:55pm:


Exactly. So let's have a guess what sort of religion does he have.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:59pm:


Not as far as I know but the cow had an expression of pleasure on her face so it appears that he knew what he was doing. But regardless of his profession he still have to be either a Christian or Unbeliever.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 2:17pm:


I did not ask him so that is open for discussion.

She had a grin on her face.

Ok enough of the innuendo. If you have anything valid to add to the topic do so, if not, let us end this despicable topic now.

As I said in the other thread, if I find out, you'll be the first to know.

Topic is now closed, also the forum guidelines have been updated to cover these kinds of threads, please re-read them.

Regards.