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No wonder islamics are militant (Read 59721 times)
Yadda
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #45 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:04pm:
Welcome to OzPolitic Yadda.



Cheers, freediver.

May you, 'Live long and prosper.'

Smiley

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Gaybriel
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #46 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:49pm
 
Yadda wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:40pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 1:17pm:
tallowood,

Quote:
So why then Moslem governments don't respect the right of girls to wear bikini where they like?


Firstly, which Muslim governments? If you have a particular country in mind, then mention it, cos the majority of 'Muslim governments' [sadly] do permit wearing of bikinis, there's very few that don't.



Malaysia, where it is an offence for unmarried ppl to hold hands in public places.

Google,
malaysia protests bikini islam
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=malaysia+protests+bikini+islam&btnG=Search&meta=

If you say Malaysia is not a muslim state,
....then when was the last bikini pageant held in Saudi Arabia or Iran?


so bikini pageants are the benchmark of freedom now?

Quote:
If you say Saudi Arabia or Iran are not a muslim states, where
is
the ISLAMIC paradise on earth, precisely?


who said there was one?





Quote:
That is like asking....
....Why does the Iraqi government not respect the right of ppl to walk around in public wearing 'suicide vests'?


worst comparison ever. epic fail.



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freediver
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #47 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:58pm
 
To find a state accepted by Muslims as a 'true' Islamic state, you would have to go back many centuries, or recreate something like that again.
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tallowood
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #48 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 3:05pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 1:17pm:
tallowood,

Quote:
So why then Moslem governments don't respect the right of girls to wear bikini where they like?


Firstly, which Muslim governments? If you have a particular country in mind, then mention it, cos the majority of 'Muslim governments' [sadly] do permit wearing of bikinis, there's very few that don't.

Secondly, why do Western governments not respect the right of girls to wear absolutely nothing wherever they like?



Any Moslem governments AFAIK. If I'm wrong I would like to know which MG allows bikini.

Western laws aren't perfect either and have a hangover from Dark Ages when Religion was the Despot, however in that respects secular countries (not only western) are way ahead of countries (not only Moslem) where Religion substitutes Reason.

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ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
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Yadda
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #49 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 3:41pm
 
Quote:
Secondly, why do Western governments not respect the right of girls to wear absolutely nothing wherever they like?


er, socially unacceptable, and illegal #1.

Quote:
That is like asking....
....Why does the Iraqi government not respect the right of ppl to walk around in public wearing 'suicide vests'?


er, socially unacceptable, and illegal #2.



Gaybriel
Quote:
worst comparison ever. epic fail.



Well, that is your opinion Gaybriel.

I say that there is a similarity of 'offence'.



+++++

Gaybriel
Quote:
so bikini pageants are the benchmark of freedom now?


No.

But police beating women on public streets because they show some hair, can hardly be demonstrated as ISLAMIC virtue, and the example of ISLAMIC tolerance?

Or can it?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/797.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6596933.stm




Quote:
Quote:
If you say Saudi Arabia or Iran are not a muslim states, where
is
the ISLAMIC paradise on earth, precisely?


who said there was one?


Ah, so there is no ISLAMIC paradise/utopia?

What is the consequence, where ever ISLAM ventures?



Q.
What is it which ISLAM 'brings' with it, wherever it goes?

A.
....'fitna'.

Strife and war.

No?



Question.....

If ISLAM is so virtuous, why don't muslims use
ISLAM
to correct their own house [i.e. their own homelands]?
....instead of trying to spread their corrupted contagion of 'perfection' [strife and war] upon others.

i.e. If ISLAM is so virtuous, why can't muslims 'clean their own stalls', instead of seeking to mess, the stalls of others?






I mean, if ISLAM truly is a perfect system of living, exemplified in muslim behaviour [which it is, according to the Koran].....

"Ye [muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.110

.....then all we non-muslims wish to see the example of this virtue.



Surely, ISLAM can point to an example of ISLAMIC virtue [a society], and demonstrate its virtue to us Kuffar?

And if i am convinced, then i will be the first to convert.

Fair offer?




But ISLAMIC culture has been demonstrated to be a failure.

How?

Clearly, muslims flock to countries like Australia, SEEKING SANCTUARY, to escape the strife [the 'religious' dictatorships] which their own 'religious' culture has created!


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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locutius
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #50 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 3:45pm
 
Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:50am:
...
I understand that the hijab/niqab is confronting for a lot of people- but really it comes down to respecting the choice of the individual. if they don't have a problem with wearing it- why does anyone else??
...


This is the crux of the issue here though, isn't it. You say " if they don't have a problem with it " to which I can say neither do I except in situations where identity needs to be verified or ALL people are subject to facial recognition software etc.

But not all Muslim communities or schools of belief are liberal enough to give the woman the CHOICE, I am convinced that there are woman of the Muslim faith who see a value in doing so. The same as bashing yourself in the forhead until you are covered in blood is seen by some as valuable. But what of the ones that don't want to, the ones that do it out of fear of violence or imprisionment. The ones that do it because if they are raped while being seen to be LOOSE, are the ones that suffer most. These are the ones whose existence seems to be denied is spite of documented and antidotal evidence otherwise.

So many are less inclined to concern themselves with the lack of tolerance shown to a MALE dominated misogynal religion when they don't extend tolerance of choice to their own. And the lack of criticism from the ones that do accept that choice directed at the ones that deny that choice reflects their own lack of ethical integrity and courage.
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abu_rashid
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #51 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:22pm
 
Yadda,

Quote:
Malaysia, where it is an offence for unmarried ppl to hold hands in public places.


We're talking about bikinis, not holding hands, don't jump from subject to subject.

Quote:
If you say Malaysia is not a muslim state,
....then when was the last bikini pageant held in Saudi Arabia or Iran?


I agree Islamically nakedness for a woman is considered all but her hands and face, you don't need to prove it to me. But when you said "Muslim countries" it just wasn't correct, because Egypt for instance, permits women to wear bikinis as do many other Muslim countries.

Quote:
That is like asking....
....Why does the Iraqi government not respect the right of ppl to walk around in public wearing 'suicide vests'?


No it's not like asking that at all. We're talking about states implementing public decency / nakedness laws, again please stay on topic. Australia, like most Western countries, have public decency laws, just as most Muslim countries do, just that in some Muslim countries they happen to be more stringent. You still restrict the 'rights' of people to expose their bodies, so stop being a hypocrite and saying you don't, and trying to sidestep the issue by spekaing about suicide bombers.

Quote:
er, socially unacceptable, and illegal #1.


Yes, exactly the same reason it's not permitted in some Muslim countries. Thank you.

Quote:
If ISLAM is so virtuous, why don't muslims use ISLAM to correct their own house [i.e. their own homelands]?
....instead of trying to spread their corrupted contagion of 'perfection' [strife and war] upon others.


Funny, the West are the ones who have a military presence in our countries, trying to enforce their ideology upon us. Look in the mirror. When was the last time a Muslim military entered a Western country to enforce their ideology? Was it in the 1500's maybe?

Quote:
Clearly, muslims flock to countries like Australia, SEEKING SANCTUARY, to escape the strife [the 'religious' dictatorships] which their own 'religious' culture has created!


Didn't you just present Iran and Saudi Arabia as possible candidtaes for religious dictatorships? funnily enough few of the Muslims in Australia are from those countries. In fact most are from Lebanon and Turkey, both secular countries, one  of them fanatically secular, the other ruled by Christians... Perhaps you'd better do a little more research?
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #52 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:28pm
 
Yadda, you do not seem to appreciate that there has been a massive Zionist western conpiracy againts muslims for centuries. The conspirators have prevented the realisation of properly constituted Islamic societies (which would be the best of all possible societies), they wage war against innocent muslims either for their oil or simply because they are muslims, they install their puppets in muslim countries with the express purpose to brutally and violently oppressing muslims.
Many muslims have been lured by the decadence of the zionist western conspirators. If only theey coul live like true muslism, there would be no need to leave their homes.

So in a small way, it is partly your fault and mine and everybody else's except the true muslims'. And anyway, many muslims were born here, why shouldn't they be here,you western oppressor, you?



Or something like that. (Unfortunmately I can't do the Pizza accent.)



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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #53 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:29pm
 
Funny, the West are the ones who have a military presence in our countries, trying to enforce their ideology upon us.

We are in Afghanistan because their leaders harboured terrorists who killed a few thousand innocent Americans in an unprovoked terrorist attack. When was the last time the west did that to the middle east? If imposing democracy on them is the only way to get them to take the terrorist problem seriously, what's wrong with that?
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #54 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:50pm
 
Quote:
the West are the ones who have a military presence in our countries

I thought you were Australian. The only country that would be "yours" should be Australia.

Yep, you're no Aussie, never have and never will be.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #55 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 5:39pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:22pm:
[quote]Funny, the West are the ones who have a military presence in our countries, trying to enforce their ideology upon us.


Where exactly is you 'our countries'? I thought they were all ruled by zionist western puppets. And the country you were born in is obviously not one of your 'our countries'.

Quote:
When was the last time a Muslim military entered a Western country to enforce their ideology? Was it in the 1500's maybe?



Thanks for the reminder. When will 'your countries' apologise for all the invasion and  conquest and imposition of islam on previously non-muslim, non-arab countries - pretty much the whole of 'your countries' except Araby.

The pope apologised for the crusades. When will your 'our countries' apologise for forcefully Arabising and islamising a vast area and population? Or are they suddenly mere Western puppets for this purpose (taking responsibility)but otherwise 'our countries for purposes of loyalty and adherence?

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Yadda
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #56 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 6:11pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:22pm:
Didn't you just present Iran and Saudi Arabia as possible candidtaes for religious dictatorships? funnily enough few of the Muslims in Australia are from those countries. In fact most are from Lebanon and Turkey, both secular countries, one  of them fanatically secular, the other ruled by Christians... Perhaps you'd better do a little more research?





I took you advice abu.

And it seems you are trying to lead me up the garden path.

'Lebanon and Turkey, both secular countries....'
.....indeed!

ROFLOL


LETS TAKE TURKEY....

Yes, Turkey has been semi-secular for many decades.

But Turkey has recently acquired a new PM,
......who is an avowed ISLAMIST.

Will Turkey remain secular for much longer???

Who knows.

And why is it abu, that devout muslims hate democracy, and favour 'mafia' like dictatorships instead?

'mafia' like dictatorships = = devout muslims call them theocratic dictatorships.
[.....well they would, if they were honest.]


Turkish PM Erdogan in 1990s said,
TURKEY'S CONSTITUTION "A HUGE LIE";
"ONE CANNOT BE A MUSLIM AND SECULAR"

....i think that last quote says it all really.


MEMRI = Middle East news service [translated to English]

May 23, 2007
Turkish PM Erdogan in Speech During Term As Istanbul Mayor Attacks Turkey's Constitution, Describing it As ‘A Huge Lie': ‘Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah'; ‘One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD159607




And learn about how Christians are persecuting muslims in Turkey.

Google,
Christians persecute muslims Turkey
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Christians+persecute+muslims+Turkey&btnG=Search&meta=

oooops!



p.s.
And I'm still waiting to hear abu, why so many muslims 'misunderstand' 'peaceful', 'virtuous', ISLAM???
i.e. Please tell us all, why does strife and war, and poverty, follow those who are devotees of Allah????

And please, can you point to an ISLAMIC society which is an example of virtue, to us unclean Kuffar???
.....and why are muslims rushing to the countries of the 'dirty', 'filthy', Kuffar?

Aren't muslims being very 'hypocritical', in their actions, and pronouncements?
....by cosying up to unbelievers???

e.g. the Koran commands muslims....

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." [i.e. is an unbeliever]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051




Further appropriate comment, lifted from another blog.....

"......I don't understand why Muslims disapprove of democracy yet want to enjoy the benefits like free housing, education, healthcare, state handouts and free speech. Instead of complaining and trying to change us, they should move and live in an Islamic state then if our way of life is so wrong. I bet the numbers of Muslims migration to countries like Egypt or Saudi Arabia is zero."
-brixtonbabe-
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #57 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 6:24pm
 
Yadda both Abu and Malik will readily admit that the ultimate goal of Islam is to destroy democracy and any other non-Muslim forms of government. Islamic law and democracy are mutally exclusive.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #58 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 6:58pm
 
Why isn't this in the Islam board?

For what it's worth, bikinis are worn in Turkey and I'm pretty sure that they are still worn in Dubai. It's becoming quite a popular holiday destination.
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...
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abu_rashid
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #59 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 10:32pm
 
Yadda,

Quote:
Yes, Turkey has been semi-secular for many decades.


Semi-secular? They've been the most militantly secular country in the world since the dismantling of the Ottoman Caliphate. The call to prayer was banned in Arabic, the Fez (Islamic hat) was banned, the hijab is not permitted in any government office or university, the Arabic alphabet was forcibly replaced with Latin alphabet (quite obviously to seperate the people from the Islamic texts), the Arabic holidays were replaced with Western ones. You call this semi-Secular??? This is fanatically secular and outright anti-Islamic, only a loon would contend otherwise.

Quote:
But Turkey has recently acquired a new PM,
......who is an avowed ISLAMIST.


Although he was  Islamist leaning in his earlier days, he's an avowed secularist now. Go and read any document released by the AK party, and you'll find they all refer to their unflinching commitment to secularism and the principles of the kemalist republic. Erdogan sold out a long time ago, and that's the only reason he's so far survived a military coup.

Quote:
And why is it abu, that devout muslims hate democracy, and favour 'mafia' like dictatorships instead?


This is a false dichotomy, either Democracy or dictatorship.

Quote:
MEMRI = Middle East news service [translated to English]


No, MEMRI = Two Jews (one of them a former Mossad agent) who decided to make an Arabic translation service, that scours Arabic news services looking for anti-Islamic/Arabic stories, and even mistranslating stories when they can't find any, sometimes even inserting their own words and sentences into the dialogue, in order to make propaganda against Islam/Arabs.

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian newspaper in the United Kingdom, commented of MEMRI:
Quote:
"My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation... the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel."


Besides, most of the Turks who came here, came to Australia long before Erdogan took office, so which religious dictatorship were they fleeing? Also you completely avoided answering about Lebanon, why? These two people alone make up the vast bulk of Australia's Muslim community... Why not just admit you don't know what you're on about, instead of trying to sling more mud?

Quote:
i.e. Please tell us all, why does strife and war, and poverty, follow those who are devotees of Allah????


why not ask your government and the US government, who are invading and creating wars in the Muslim countries. As I said, show me any Muslim country that's invaded a Western country since 1600?

Quote:
And please, can you point to an ISLAMIC society which is an example of virtue, to us unclean Kuffar???


If I'd made the claim that an Islamic society exists, then you'd be justified in asking this question. However I have not, so you are not.

Quote:
....and why are muslims rushing to the countries of the 'dirty', 'filthy', Kuffar?


Prior to the West invading them, how many Muslims were rushing to Western countries? Pretty much none. The past 100 years of colonialism is what's led to the complete destruction of the economies of the Muslim countries. Muslims come to Australia as economic refugees generally, not because they like Big Macs and meat pies. And Australia actually is witnessing record levels of immigrants returning to their former homes. This year 77,000 Australians moved overseas permanently, the bulk of them immigrants returning to their home countries.

Quote:
Aren't muslims being very 'hypocritical', in their actions, and pronouncements?


Nope, it's permissible for Muslims to seek refuge in Christian lands, the first Hijrah (migration) of Muslims to a Christian land was to Abyssinia (Ethiopia, formerly a centre of civilisation, before the West took control of Africa and turned it into a famine stricken mess), during the time of Prophet (pbuh), it was deemed permissible.

Quote:
of democracy yet want to enjoy the benefits like free housing, education, healthcare, state handouts and free speech.


Most of those things are not peculiar to democracy, in fact they're more commonly associated with socialism. Islam also believes in such concepts, and enacted most of those systems long before the West even wore clothes or built houses.
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