freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 2:04pm:



Cheers, freediver.

May you, 'Live long and prosper.'

To find a state accepted by Muslims as a 'true' Islamic state, you would have to go back many centuries, or recreate something like that again.

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er, socially unacceptable, and illegal #1.

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er, socially unacceptable, and illegal #2.



Gaybriel
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Well, that is your opinion Gaybriel.

I say that there is a similarity of 'offence'.



+++++

Gaybriel
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No.

But police beating women on public streets because they show some hair, can hardly be demonstrated as ISLAMIC virtue, and the example of ISLAMIC tolerance?

Or can it?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/797.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6596933.stm




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Ah, so there is no ISLAMIC paradise/utopia?

What is the consequence, where ever ISLAM ventures?



Q.
What is it which ISLAM 'brings' with it, wherever it goes?

A.
....'fitna'.

Strife and war.

No?



Question.....

If ISLAM is so virtuous, why don't muslims use

ISLAM

to correct their own house [i.e. their own homelands]?
....instead of trying to spread their corrupted contagion of 'perfection' [strife and war] upon others.

i.e. If ISLAM is so virtuous, why can't muslims 'clean their own stalls', instead of seeking to mess, the stalls of others?






I mean, if ISLAM truly is a perfect system of living, exemplified in muslim behaviour [which it is, according to the Koran].....

"Ye [muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.110

.....then all we non-muslims wish to see the example of this virtue.



Surely, ISLAM can point to an example of ISLAMIC virtue [a society], and demonstrate its virtue to us Kuffar?

And if i am convinced, then i will be the first to convert.

Fair offer?




But ISLAMIC culture has been demonstrated to be a failure.

How?

Clearly, muslims flock to countries like Australia, SEEKING SANCTUARY, to escape the strife [the 'religious' dictatorships] which their own 'religious' culture has created!

Yadda,

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We're talking about bikinis, not holding hands, don't jump from subject to subject.

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I agree Islamically nakedness for a woman is considered all but her hands and face, you don't need to prove it to me. But when you said "Muslim countries" it just wasn't correct, because Egypt for instance, permits women to wear bikinis as do many other Muslim countries.

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No it's not like asking that at all. We're talking about states implementing public decency / nakedness laws, again please stay on topic. Australia, like most Western countries, have public decency laws, just as most Muslim countries do, just that in some Muslim countries they happen to be more stringent. You still restrict the 'rights' of people to expose their bodies, so stop being a hypocrite and saying you don't, and trying to sidestep the issue by spekaing about suicide bombers.

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Yes, exactly the same reason it's not permitted in some Muslim countries. Thank you.

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Funny, the West are the ones who have a military presence in our countries, trying to enforce their ideology upon us. Look in the mirror. When was the last time a Muslim military entered a Western country to enforce their ideology? Was it in the 1500's maybe?

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Didn't you just present Iran and Saudi Arabia as possible candidtaes for religious dictatorships? funnily enough few of the Muslims in Australia are from those countries. In fact most are from Lebanon and Turkey, both secular countries, one  of them fanatically secular, the other ruled by Christians... Perhaps you'd better do a little more research?

Funny, the West are the ones who have a military presence in our countries, trying to enforce their ideology upon us.

We are in Afghanistan because their leaders harboured terrorists who killed a few thousand innocent Americans in an unprovoked terrorist attack. When was the last time the west did that to the middle east? If imposing democracy on them is the only way to get them to take the terrorist problem seriously, what's wrong with that?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 4:22pm:


Where exactly is you 'our countries'? I thought they were all ruled by zionist western puppets. And the country you were born in is obviously not one of your 'our countries'.

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Thanks for the reminder. When will 'your countries' apologise for all the invasion and  conquest and imposition of islam on previously non-muslim, non-arab countries - pretty much the whole of 'your countries' except Araby.

The pope apologised for the crusades. When will your 'our countries' apologise for forcefully Arabising and islamising a vast area and population? Or are they suddenly mere Western puppets for this purpose (taking responsibility)but otherwise 'our countries for purposes of loyalty and adherence?

Yadda both Abu and Malik will readily admit that the ultimate goal of Islam is to destroy democracy and any other non-Muslim forms of government. Islamic law and democracy are mutally exclusive.

Yadda,

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Semi-secular? They've been the most militantly secular country in the world since the dismantling of the Ottoman Caliphate. The call to prayer was banned in Arabic, the Fez (Islamic hat) was banned, the hijab is not permitted in any government office or university, the Arabic alphabet was forcibly replaced with Latin alphabet (quite obviously to seperate the people from the Islamic texts), the Arabic holidays were replaced with Western ones. You call this semi-Secular??? This is fanatically secular and outright anti-Islamic, only a loon would contend otherwise.

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Although he was  Islamist leaning in his earlier days, he's an avowed secularist now. Go and read any document released by the AK party, and you'll find they all refer to their unflinching commitment to secularism and the principles of the kemalist republic. Erdogan sold out a long time ago, and that's the only reason he's so far survived a military coup.

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This is a false dichotomy, either Democracy or dictatorship.

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No, MEMRI = Two Jews (one of them a former Mossad agent) who decided to make an Arabic translation service, that scours Arabic news services looking for anti-Islamic/Arabic stories, and even mistranslating stories when they can't find any, sometimes even inserting their own words and sentences into the dialogue, in order to make propaganda against Islam/Arabs.

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian newspaper in the United Kingdom, commented of MEMRI:
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Besides, most of the Turks who came here, came to Australia long before Erdogan took office, so which religious dictatorship were they fleeing? Also you completely avoided answering about Lebanon, why? These two people alone make up the vast bulk of Australia's Muslim community... Why not just admit you don't know what you're on about, instead of trying to sling more mud?

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why not ask your government and the US government, who are invading and creating wars in the Muslim countries. As I said, show me any Muslim country that's invaded a Western country since 1600?

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If I'd made the claim that an Islamic society exists, then you'd be justified in asking this question. However I have not, so you are not.

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Prior to the West invading them, how many Muslims were rushing to Western countries? Pretty much none. The past 100 years of colonialism is what's led to the complete destruction of the economies of the Muslim countries. Muslims come to Australia as economic refugees generally, not because they like Big Macs and meat pies. And Australia actually is witnessing record levels of immigrants returning to their former homes. This year 77,000 Australians moved overseas permanently, the bulk of them immigrants returning to their home countries.

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Nope, it's permissible for Muslims to seek refuge in Christian lands, the first Hijrah (migration) of Muslims to a Christian land was to Abyssinia (Ethiopia, formerly a centre of civilisation, before the West took control of Africa and turned it into a famine stricken mess), during the time of Prophet (pbuh), it was deemed permissible.

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Most of those things are not peculiar to democracy, in fact they're more commonly associated with socialism. Islam also believes in such concepts, and enacted most of those systems long before the West even wore clothes or built houses.