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coexistence (Read 4492 times)
freediver
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coexistence
Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:06pm
 
from the militant islamics thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223522110/40#40

"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE"
"It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world **or to co-exist** in the same land together with a jahili system........"
by SAYYID QUTB
http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html

What are your views on this?

i.e. ISLAMIC doctrine mandates intolerance of the Jahiliyya [un-ISLAMIC] lifestyle [even within non-muslim countries].

"....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society
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Soren
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Re: coexistence
Reply #1 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:29pm
 
Jahiliya is pre-islamic, not un-islamic.
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abu_rashid
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Re: coexistence
Reply #2 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 10:50pm
 

Sayyid Qutb (May God have mercy on him) was writing about Egyptian society, not Western societies. He is one of the most misquoted and slandered scholars of Islam today.

Jahiliyyah = ignorance. Specifically it refers to the pre-Islamic ignorance of Arabia. Sayyid Qutb used the word to refer to the way Egyptian (and other Muslim countries) society had reverted back partially to their pre-Islamic state, and therefore were in need of revival.
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Re: coexistence
Reply #3 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:03pm
 
abu - just say whether you agree or disagree with him.


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Re: coexistence
Reply #4 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 7:48am
 

sprint, the question was "What are your views on this?", not "do you agree or diagree with him". If you'd like to ask that question, I suggest you place one of these "?" at the terminating point of your sentence and remove the imperative "just say" from the beginning.
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Re: coexistence
Reply #5 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 10:24am
 
How terribly insensitive of me to phrase my question in such a manner gramatically to offend you.

Quite correct of you to castigate me and not answer my query.

I shall learn form this and be a better man.
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Re: coexistence
Reply #6 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 10:35am
 
seems we cant coexist.

I cant even ask a question proper.

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Malik Shakur
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Re: coexistence
Reply #7 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:25pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 10:35am:
seems we cant coexist.

I cant even ask a question proper.


Wow.. That's you saying that.. Not Islam..

Typical of the Western Imperialist Christian mindset to think that because you can't colonize and force your own ideology, values and religion onto a people in another land then subjugate them and exploit their land and resources as you did to Africa, The Americas, Australia etc that you are unable to coexist. Perhaps if you actually respected groups, races, religions, cultures other than your own and instead just had mutually beneficial relationships you wouldn't need to do all that and could have fruitful diplomacy, trade and commerce that way.

Respect goes a long way..

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Re: coexistence
Reply #8 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:31pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:25pm:
[quote]Respect goes a long way..




Gotta be earned first... Looong way to go.



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Re: coexistence
Reply #9 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:43pm
 

malik - this is coming from the one who threatens legal action against me and others to stop us asking questions ??
go and take a flying jump at yourself


found any 7 year olds to marry there ?
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Re: coexistence
Reply #10 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:50pm
 
six
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Malik Shakur
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Re: coexistence
Reply #11 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:58pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 6:43pm:
malik - this is coming from the one who threatens legal action against me and others to stop us asking questions ??
go and take a flying jump at yourself


found any 7 year olds to marry there ?

Sprint you were never threatened with legal action, the forums were for allowing your racist behavior to continue unchecked and for neglecting their duty of care for other members on the forum.

Furthermore it was not for asking questions.. It was for racism and religious intolerance through your constant unhealthy and hateful obsession with trolling on the site about Islam and no one could deny that..

The comment about the 7 year olds is your last warning mate. If it happens again you can post elsewhere and not on the Islamic forums. It wont be tolerated here.
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Re: coexistence
Reply #12 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 7:53pm
 
Go easy on sprint Malik.He's still getting over the molestation he recieved from his priest when he was 7.

Poor bugger...little did he truly understand what it meant when his priest, the 'father' asked him into his cubicle for confession.

Ironic hey...the religon which has produced the most peadaphiles from its clergy is Christianity...and I suspect that given Sprint's evident mental problems...perhaps he was much more 'closer' to his priest then he would of liked.

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Re: coexistence
Reply #13 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:01pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 7:53pm:
Go easy on sprint Malik.He's still getting over the molestation he recieved from his priest when he was 7.

Poor bugger...little did he truly understand what it meant when his priest, the 'father' asked him into his cubicle for confession.

Ironic hey...the religon which has produced the most peadaphiles from its clergy is Christianity...and I suspect that given Sprint's evident mental problems...perhaps he was much more 'closer' to his priest then he would of liked.


would have liked...

('ere we go....)





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Re: coexistence
Reply #14 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:10pm
 
malik - does lestat get a similar warning ?
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Re: coexistence
Reply #15 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:31pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:01pm:
Lestat wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 7:53pm:
Go easy on sprint Malik.He's still getting over the molestation he recieved from his priest when he was 7.

Poor bugger...little did he truly understand what it meant when his priest, the 'father' asked him into his cubicle for confession.

Ironic hey...the religon which has produced the most peadaphiles from its clergy is Christianity...and I suspect that given Sprint's evident mental problems...perhaps he was much more 'closer' to his priest then he would of liked.


would have liked...

('ere we go....)




Is that the best you can do....lol Cheesy

oh look, I can also be as childish as you Soren if I really try.

here we go...
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« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:46pm by Lestat »  
 
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Re: coexistence
Reply #16 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:38pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:10pm:
malik - does lestat get a similar warning ?

Indeed he does..

Lestat knock it off.. that's not appropriate at all.
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Re: coexistence
Reply #17 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:46pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:38pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:10pm:
malik - does lestat get a similar warning ?

Indeed he does..

Lestat knock it off.. that's not appropriate at all.


Just giving him back some of his own medicine Malik...but point taken.
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Re: coexistence
Reply #18 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 8:52pm
 
thank you mailk
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Re: coexistence
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 3:37pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 10:50pm:
Sayyid Qutb (May God have mercy on him) was writing about Egyptian society, not Western societies. He is one of the most misquoted and slandered scholars of Islam today.

Jahiliyyah = ignorance. Specifically it refers to the pre-Islamic ignorance of Arabia. Sayyid Qutb used the word to refer to the way Egyptian (and other Muslim countries) society had reverted back partially to their pre-Islamic state, and therefore were in need of revival.


To what extent does pre-Islamic Arabian ignorance include Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Budhism, democracy, secularism, personal freedom, alcohol, homosexuality, masturbation, music etc?

Does Islam invoke different rules or standards for different geographic regions?
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Re: coexistence
Reply #20 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 3:59pm
 
this is not necessarily in answer to the above- just something I read and wanted to post

CULTURE OF KNOWING ONE ANOTHER
By Dr. Muhammad Nimr Al-Samak
A Lebanese journalist and writer



“O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.” (Glorious Qur’an 49: 13).

This verse from the Qur’an deals with issues of major importance. One of these is, of course, that God created us ‘different’, a point which is further stressed in the chapter of al-Rum (the Romans) in the Glorious Qur’an:
“And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.” (22)

The other side of God’s wisdom to create us is difference, which is revealed in his call to mankind to ‘know one another’. ‘Dialogue’ is the gateway to knowing one another. That is why Islam encourages dialogue in the best way and lays down the basis for this kind of dialogue considering it as part of Islamic faith.

The call to the people of the world ‘to know one another’ is also of most importance because it is nothing less than an invitation to dialogue on the collective level (a concept that is so badly missing in today’s world where individualism seems to overwhelm human relations). Dialogue (which could also be termed ‘communication’) is given high esteem in Islam; it is actually tantamount to a wisdom which--if understood and applied properly--could well serve as a stepping stone for the promotion of a ‘new world order’, which all men of good will are dreaming of today.

Islam recognizes human difference in ethnicity, in color, in culture as well as in traditions, yet they come from one origin and after all form one big human family. as Qur’an says : “Mankind were but one community; then they differed” (10: 19).

Moreover, the need for humanity to be one and united is duly emphasized in the Qur’an, which is unequivocal about the fact that the existing differences (in whatever form they may manifest themselves) will never negate (obliterate?) the fact that we are ‘one family’ belonging to the one and only creator. It also affirms that our unity is based on our differences, revealing and witnessing the greatness of almighty God in creating them.

This unity is based on our differences and not on conformities and similarities, because human differences reveals and witness at the same time the greatness of the lord the creator. This means that accepting and respecting plurality as God created us, is in itself an expression of believing in God.

The Islamic rule as it is stated by prophet Mohammad (P.B.H.) says that “there is no preference of an Arab over non Arab, or of white person over a black person, but in piety”. This means that ethnic differences do not form any base for preference. It rather means that these differences are part of the nature of humans as God created him, and as He chooses them to be.

If respecting the culture and the ethnicity of the other is considered a principle of Islamic doctrine and consequently a fundamental base of Islamic behavior and conduct, then respecting the beliefs and religious doctrines of the other is in a way a respect to the principle of freedom that God bestowed on all humans and to the principle of “ no compulsion in religion” (2:256).

The Qur’an says: “And each one hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things” (2:148).

And in clear indication to the plurality of human directions, the Qur’an says :
“they would not follow thy qiblah, nor canst thou be a follower of their qiblah; nor are some of them followers of the qiblah of others” (2: 145) (qiblah: the direction of prayer).

This means that with the differences in ethnicities and in languages and cultures, it was within the nature of God’s mercy that the lord afforded mankind with different divine laws that accept and recognize such differences. In this the Qur’an says:

“And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ” (5: 47). “and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ” (3:15). “And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing” (11:118).

(cont...)
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Re: coexistence
Reply #21 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 3:59pm
 
(cont...)

The unity of race, color or language is not an inevitable necessity without which mutual understanding cannot be achieved. It is therefore necessary in order to establish relations built on the bases of love and respect and to have a dialogue based on the bases of these differences, created and intended by Allah. Reflecting on such differences, Freud called the state of humanity ‘the narcissism of the differences’, as “no matter how small they are, we make them into the core of our personality”.

Here, it is worth mentioning that the holy Qur’an calls in the second chapter, Aal-Imran, for holding fast to Allah’s bond and not falling apart when it says :And hold fast, all of you together, to the cable of Allah, and do not separate” (3:103). He did not say ‘do not differ’, because holding fast to Allah, to Allah’s bond can be achieved with differing, but not with ‘falling apart’ because falling apart is one thing and differing is something else.

In a multi-religion, multi-sectarians and multi-ethnicity world continuous, open and enlightened dialogue becomes a cardinal principle of human understanding, mutual respect and cooperation between peoples and nations. For, dialogue cannot be expect with the other; otherwise it will become a self-dialogue excluding the ‘other’ and his difference(s); or else, the dialogue loses it meaning. Therefore, the first condition for dialogue is acceptance both facts of life: plurality and difference. This acceptance is one of the characteristics of Islamic jurisprudence.

The society of Medina during the time of the prophet Muhammad (P.B.H.) has set the rule for establishing a cooperative system between the groups of believers and the People of Book. The prophet’s charter (also known as the constitution of Madina) allowed people to keep their beliefs and guaranteed their protection as they are. The society of Medina was built on the basis of spreading the message while embracing difference rather than ignoring it or attempting to eliminate it.

More than that, the prophet conducted a dialogue with the Christians tribe of Najran and extended his hospitality to them in his house at medina. That was the first Muslim-Christian dialogue in history. It is true he did not conduct a religious dialogue with them, but when it was time for them to pray, the prophet found nothing wrong with inviting them, as reliable sources report, to perform their beliefs. Belief in Islam settles in the mind by choice and is not to be forced. The Qur’anic verse says :”there is no compulsion in religion”(2:256). The ‘no’ here is a prohibitive one. That is, it does not mean do not compel people in religion but rather that religion is not complete, or cannot essentially be, by compulsion.

On the basis of this prophetic precedence in the first state of Islam and in the first constitution, Islam embraces a diversity in the nature of society, then dialogue comes in as the only way which leads--through free choice and respect--to agreement, understanding, love and unity. That is because the opposite of dialogue is isolation and developing a closed culture of caution, suspicion and animosity towards the ‘other’.

One of the foundations of the Islamic civilization is respect for the other and embracing openness and rapprochement, rather than ignoring, eliminating or dissolving him. The multiplicity of religious and ethnic minorities in the Islamic world and the retention of these minorities of their racial characteristics, doctrinal and religious heritage, languages and cultures is a proof to this fact and its strength. Islam’s recognition of the other and the need for a ‘dialogue’ in ways that are best and excepting him ‘as he is’ is not necessarily attributable to the tolerance of Muslims but rather to the essence of Islamic shari’a and doctrine.

The elements of Islamic culture and traditions were formed and developed in basic harmony with ‘religion’. This means that the disengagement between Islamic religion and culture deprives this culture of its identity and uproots it form its spiritual roots. The English orientalist Montgomery Watt says :

“ if we look more generally at the relation between religion and politics, it is helpful to consider first the place of religion in the life of an individual, in the case of a person to whom religion means something and is not a merely nominal adherence, two points may be emphasized. First, the idea of this religion constitutes the intellectual frameworks within which he sees all his activity taking place. It is from this relationship to a wider context that his activities gain their significance, and a consideration of this relationship may influence his general plan for his life in particular ways. Secondly, because religion brings an awareness of this wider context in which the possible aims for a man’s life are set, it may often generate the motives for his activity; indeed, without the motives given by religion some activities cannot be carried out. From these two points it is seen that religion has a central position in man’s life, not because it determines many of the details (though in some cases it may), but because it gives him general aims in life and helps to concentrate his energies in the pursuit of these aims.”

(cont...)
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Re: coexistence
Reply #22 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 4:00pm
 
(cont...)

That is why the ignorance, or the negligence, of the Islamic fundamental bases that determines the relationship with the other led to the formation of misguided religious thought, and consequently to the formation of an unbalanced frame-work within which some Muslims see their activities taking place. Opposing and readjusting this misguided religious thought and unbalanced frameworks is a must. It can’t be done without going back to the fundamental basis of Islam.

The relationship between peoples and nations is built either on knowing one another or refusing one another. Common knowledge leads to mutual understanding, cooperation and respect. While common refusal leads to animosity and mutual attempts of elimination. Islam adopts and calls for the first, and refuses and rules out the second; and on this basis Islam stressed on the principle of “to know one another”. This principle bridges the gap between all peoples and forms the master key of human development and universal stability, peace and progress; knowing the other.

http://taarafu.islamonline.net/English/Taarafo_Conference/2003/article06.shtml
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Re: coexistence
Reply #23 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 4:05pm
 
Quote:
To what extent does pre-Islamic Arabian ignorance include Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Budhism, democracy, secularism, personal freedom, alcohol, homosexuality, masturbation, music etc?


Huh? Jahiliyyah specifically refers to the pre-Islamic pagan religion/culture of the Arabs. It can also be used as a general term meaning simply ignorance. I was jahil to the traffic laws, I was ignorant of them.

Not sure exactly what it is you're driiving at freediver, perhaps you could stop beating around the bush and just come out and say whatever it is you seem to be quite vaguely hinting at?

Quote:
Does Islam invoke different rules or standards for different geographic regions?


In regards to.. ?
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Re: coexistence
Reply #24 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 4:09pm
 


Excellent article Gaybriel, thanks for that. Smiley
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Re: coexistence
Reply #25 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 4:28pm
 
Quote:
If respecting the culture and the ethnicity of the other is considered a principle of Islamic doctrine and consequently a fundamental base of Islamic behavior and conduct, then respecting the beliefs and religious doctrines of the other is in a way a respect to the principle of freedom that God bestowed on all humans and to the principle of “ no compulsion in religion” (2:256).


Doesn't this contradict the bit about not tolerating 'pagan' religions?

Where does Budhism and Hinduism fit into this? How about Atheism?
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