Australian Politics Forum - US pilot told to shoot down UFO

easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #15 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:07pm

Ok I have just read the entire article.

Here are some quotes from the full thing which I found interesting.

Quote:

Since the incident, Torres has become more convinced that the object, travelling at speed and performing manoeuvres beyond the capability of any known aircraft at that time, was an alien UFO.

As far as I am aware, the MiG21 sacrificed manoeuverability in exchange for speed.

Quote:

"The blip was burning a hole in the radar with its incredible intensity. It was similar to a blip I had received from B52s and seemed to be a magnet of light. It had the proportions of a flying aircraft carrier," he wrote, according to The Times.

Quote:

He said that in the 1960s it emerged that the CIA had been engaged in a secret project codenamed Palladium, in which advanced equipment was used to create simulated radar blips close to Soviet airspace.

However this was in the 50's, not the 60's.

Quote:

Dr Clarke told The times that he thought it was linked to clandestine flights over the Soviet Union of the American U2 spy plane.

The Blackbird flew so high and so fast (it was a photo recon plane if I remember right) that it routinely got clipped on Soviet radar and would have missles fired at it from SAM batteries as well as interceptors sent on a vector towards it and it would not change anything about its flight path and 'laugh' at the threats it received.

If the pilot of this aircraft, someone trained in identifying radar blips, would never mention that he thought it may have been a MiG, what makes you so confident it was?

Now, back to why the MiG, which travels slower than the speed of radar, would appear to be a bomber, or a flying aircraft carrier on the radar screen.

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easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #16 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:12pm

tallowood wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:04pm:

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 3:51pm:

Please tell me where I can see old radars in operation. I have seen old radars, but I have a feeling there are none that are operational.

Please tell me how a small fighter can appear to be a large bomber on radar.

They may have some in some military history museum or may be private collection. When you see one you will instantly understand how a small fighter can appear to be a large bomber on old radar screen especially when there are some clouds around or rain or snow.

I have seen old radar, but I have never and will never see any being used. You can change the gain on any radio equipment, whether it be communications or radar to filter out such things as clouds, rain, or snow. Besides, clouds, rain, snow are essentially water. If radar was that crap you would never be able to spot a ship on the ocean due to the feedback, you would never be able to spot a fighter on a rainy day. The radar works on frequencies and at powers far different to say a HF radio, they are not going to be affected by things such as clouds if you get the controls right, at least according to my reasoning, however I am unsure, and I think they can bounce radar off the stratosphere to get over the horison readings like what they do with the Jindalee system.

These trained radar operators said that it resembled a bomber on the radar. I'm sure they know what they are talking about.

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tallowood

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #17 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:28pm

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:07pm:

Ok I have just read the entire article.

Here are some quotes from the full thing which I found interesting.

Quote:

Since the incident, Torres has become more convinced that the object, travelling at speed and performing manoeuvres beyond the capability of any known aircraft at that time, was an alien UFO.

As far as I am aware, the MiG21 sacrificed manoeuverability in exchange for speed.

Quote:

"The blip was burning a hole in the radar with its incredible intensity. It was similar to a blip I had received from B52s and seemed to be a magnet of light. It had the proportions of a flying aircraft carrier," he wrote, according to The Times.

Quote:

He said that in the 1960s it emerged that the CIA had been engaged in a secret project codenamed Palladium, in which advanced equipment was used to create simulated radar blips close to Soviet airspace.

However this was in the 50's, not the 60's.

Quote:

Dr Clarke told The times that he thought it was linked to clandestine flights over the Soviet Union of the American U2 spy plane.

The Blackbird flew so high and so fast (it was a photo recon plane if I remember right) that it routinely got clipped on Soviet radar and would have missles fired at it from SAM batteries as well as interceptors sent on a vector towards it and it would not change anything about its flight path and 'laugh' at the threats it received.

If the pilot of this aircraft, someone trained in identifying radar blips, would never mention that he thought it may have been a MiG, what makes you so confident it was?

Now, back to why the MiG, which travels slower than the speed of radar, would appear to be a bomber, or a flying aircraft carrier on the radar screen.

I already have given you clues about the radar now you have to see it for yourself to believe.
As for u2 it was shot down in over USSR territory in 1960, which took Americans completely by surprise about capability of soviet airspace technology.

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tallowood

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #18 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:32pm

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:12pm:

tallowood wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:04pm:

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 3:51pm:

Please tell me where I can see old radars in operation. I have seen old radars, but I have a feeling there are none that are operational.

Please tell me how a small fighter can appear to be a large bomber on radar.

They may have some in some military history museum or may be private collection. When you see one you will instantly understand how a small fighter can appear to be a large bomber on old radar screen especially when there are some clouds around or rain or snow.

I have seen old radar, but I have never and will never see any being used. You can change the gain on any radio equipment, whether it be communications or radar to filter out such things as clouds, rain, or snow. Besides, clouds, rain, snow are essentially water. If radar was that crap you would never be able to spot a ship on the ocean due to the feedback, you would never be able to spot a fighter on a rainy day. The radar works on frequencies and at powers far different to say a HF radio, they are not going to be affected by things such as clouds if you get the controls right, at least according to my reasoning, however I am unsure, and I think they can bounce radar off the stratosphere to get over the horison readings like what they do with the Jindalee system.

These trained radar operators said that it resembled a bomber on the radar. I'm sure they know what they are talking about.

What trained radar operators? The article says about aircraft radar.
Besides as I mentioned before lots of American servicemen in Europe in 50 were heavy on drugs and could "see" lucy in the sky.

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easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #19 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:43pm

So they were all hallucinating a radar hit at the same time?

The pilot of an attack aircraft is not just trained in takeoff, landing and flying. They would learn such things as comms, weapons, radar. Therefore the pilot would know how to use his inboard radar systems.

An F117 got shot down in Kosovo. What is your point? Yes nothing is perfect.

Please tell me how the hell a MiG can appear to be a bomber due to its speed. If you have the knowledge why not share it with me.

And please tell me why this pilot, who is trained in the use of radar, never assumed it was a MiG, but rather a bomber or a flying aircraft carrier.

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tallowood

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #20 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:49pm

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:43pm:

So they were all hallucinating a radar hit at the same time?

The pilot of an attack aircraft is not just trained in takeoff, landing and flying. They would learn such things as comms, weapons, radar. Therefore the pilot would know how to use his inboard radar systems.

An F117 got shot down in Kosovo. What is your point? Yes nothing is perfect.

Please tell me how the hell a MiG can appear to be a bomber due to its speed. If you have the knowledge why not share it with me.

And please tell me why this pilot, who is trained in the use of radar, never assumed it was a MiG, but rather a bomber or a flying aircraft carrier.

So was it the aircraft radar or ground radar and was the pilot ordered to shoot UFO? Where all this info in the article?

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easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #21 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:55pm

tallowood wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:49pm:

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:43pm:

So they were all hallucinating a radar hit at the same time?

The pilot of an attack aircraft is not just trained in takeoff, landing and flying. They would learn such things as comms, weapons, radar. Therefore the pilot would know how to use his inboard radar systems.

An F117 got shot down in Kosovo. What is your point? Yes nothing is perfect.

Please tell me how the hell a MiG can appear to be a bomber due to its speed. If you have the knowledge why not share it with me.

And please tell me why this pilot, who is trained in the use of radar, never assumed it was a MiG, but rather a bomber or a flying aircraft carrier.

So was it the aircraft radar or ground radar and was the pilot ordered to shoot UFO? Where all this info in the article?

You are either incredibly stupid or you are baiting me. Either way, I don't want to discuss these minor details with you until you tell me how a MiG, due to speed, can appear to be a bomber or a flying aircraft carrier on radar.

Last time I will address your deflections.

Quote:

An American jet fighter pilot has spoken of they day he was scrambled to try to shoot down a UFO in British airspace more than 50 years ago.

Lieutenant Milton Torres was based in Britain on May 20, 1957 when he received the order: get up there, arm all weapons and fire on sight.

Ground radar, orders to destroy target.

Quote:

Neither Torres, who was 24 at the time, nor the pilot of a second Sabre flying behind, actually saw what was making the strong blip on their radars.

Aircraft radar. Or possibly a received signal from the ground station.

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tallowood

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #22 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 5:37pm

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:55pm:

tallowood wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:49pm:

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:43pm:

So they were all hallucinating a radar hit at the same time?

The pilot of an attack aircraft is not just trained in takeoff, landing and flying. They would learn such things as comms, weapons, radar. Therefore the pilot would know how to use his inboard radar systems.

An F117 got shot down in Kosovo. What is your point? Yes nothing is perfect.

Please tell me how the hell a MiG can appear to be a bomber due to its speed. If you have the knowledge why not share it with me.

And please tell me why this pilot, who is trained in the use of radar, never assumed it was a MiG, but rather a bomber or a flying aircraft carrier.

So was it the aircraft radar or ground radar and was the pilot ordered to shoot UFO? Where all this info in the article?

You are either incredibly stupid or you are baiting me. Either way, I don't want to discuss these minor details with you until you tell me how a MiG, due to speed, can appear to be a bomber or a flying aircraft carrier on radar.

Last time I will address your deflections.

Quote:

An American jet fighter pilot has spoken of they day he was scrambled to try to shoot down a UFO in British airspace more than 50 years ago.

Lieutenant Milton Torres was based in Britain on May 20, 1957 when he received the order: get up there, arm all weapons and fire on sight.

Ground radar, orders to destroy target.

Quote:

Neither Torres, who was 24 at the time, nor the pilot of a second Sabre flying behind, actually saw what was making the strong blip on their radars.

Aircraft radar. Or possibly a received signal from the ground station.

If out of two of us one is incredibly stupid it is not me. I told you before go and lurn about radar technology in general and then from 50s otherwise it will be waste of my time to explain you anything technical. Do it. You are not really stupid are you? Undecided

Also think about why trained as you claim air force pilot talk about b 52 and not about soviet model of a bomber. trained pilot suppose to know all there is to know about potential enemy aircraft he suppose to combat. Think about that question while you study about radars.

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easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #23 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 5:56pm

You are the one with the knowledge of radar and how it works, so please tell me how a fast small jet can appear to be a large bomber.

He said it appeared like a B52 or a flying aircraft carrier, it was large was the point I think he was making.

You know how radar works, and I am sure the Soviets were not silly enough to routinely fly their long range bombers within range of enemy radar so as to allow the enemy ground stations to build profiles of how their aircraft perform on radar so as to allow the enemy to instantly know what kind of aircraft they were presented with.

If you know about the radar technology, educate me, teach me, so I can learn.

Radar does not give you a full colour photograph of the aircraft where you can read the tail number of the aircraft.

During the Vietnam war the Americans were having problems with their planes getting massacred over North Vietnam by the NVAF. What they did was get their fighters to mimic the flight patterns of bombers and simulate refuelling to fool the radar operators of North Vietnam in to thinking they had more bombers headed their way. When the North Vietnamese fighters were scrambled they met US fighters and got shot out of the sky.

So as you can see, radar is not infallible.

But you would know that, seeing as you are a radar expert.

Now please explain to me about how a small fighter can appear to be massive based purely on speed. Not to mention how the not so agile MiG21 can perform amazing feats of aerobatics on radar.

We both know this wasn't a MiG21. There is no arguing this point further. It may not have been extra terrestrial, it may have been electronic counter radar/jamming experiments.

C'mon smarty pants, tell me how the radar could be fooled, purely by speed, in to thinking a MiG21 was a large bomber, and why the radar signature would be so large.

You're the expert on 1950's era British ground to air radar, now please educate everyone on the board.

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tallowood

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #24 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:09pm

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 5:56pm:

You are the one with the knowledge of radar and how it works, so please tell me how a fast small jet can appear to be a large bomber.

He said it appeared like a B52 or a flying aircraft carrier, it was large was the point I think he was making.

You know how radar works, and I am sure the Soviets were not silly enough to routinely fly their long range bombers within range of enemy radar so as to allow the enemy ground stations to build profiles of how their aircraft perform on radar so as to allow the enemy to instantly know what kind of aircraft they were presented with.

If you know about the radar technology, educate me, teach me, so I can learn.

Radar does not give you a full colour photograph of the aircraft where you can read the tail number of the aircraft.

During the Vietnam war the Americans were having problems with their planes getting massacred over North Vietnam by the NVAF. What they did was get their fighters to mimic the flight patterns of bombers and simulate refuelling to fool the radar operators of North Vietnam in to thinking they had more bombers headed their way. When the North Vietnamese fighters were scrambled they met US fighters and got shot out of the sky.

So as you can see, radar is not infallible.

But you would know that, seeing as you are a radar expert.

Now please explain to me about how a small fighter can appear to be massive based purely on speed. Not to mention how the not so agile MiG21 can perform amazing feats of aerobatics on radar.

We both know this wasn't a MiG21. There is no arguing this point further. It may not have been extra terrestrial, it may have been electronic counter radar/jamming experiments.

C'mon smarty pants, tell me how the radar could be fooled, purely by speed, in to thinking a MiG21 was a large bomber, and why the radar signature would be so large.

You're the expert on 1950's era British ground to air radar, now please educate everyone on the board.

Have you learn about radar technology yet? I told you already that you need to know it to understand otherwise it would be waste of time.

BTW, where is in the article the thingo about 1950's era British ground to air radar? Common mr curious point it out.

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easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #25 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:18pm

I have a very limited understanding of radar, but I am sure I can understand ANYTHING you are willing to explain to me, if not I can ask questions about the points I do not grasp and you can educate me.

The whole article is about 50's era ground based and air based air radar, in the sense that is the only type of radar mentioned. It is about detecting via radar a target in the air from the ground and in the air. Did you miss that part?

So anyway, are you going to teach me, or are you too busy with google trying to teach yourself first?

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tallowood

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #26 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:47pm

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:18pm:

I have a very limited understanding of radar, but I am sure I can understand ANYTHING you are willing to explain to me, if not I can ask questions about the points I do not grasp and you can educate me.

The whole article is about 50's era ground based and air based air radar, in the sense that is the only type of radar mentioned. It is about detecting via radar a target in the air from the ground and in the air. Did you miss that part?

So anyway, are you going to teach me, or are you too busy with google trying to teach yourself first?

So it wasn't about aircraft radar or was it? This is very important to how an error about b52 was made. Hint" the size of screen. And I still have doubts about authenticity of the story due to allegedly highly trained interceptor pilot talking about an American bomber instead of potential enemy aircraft. Also it seems strange that there was no mention about meteorological conditions in the report at the time of the incident.

Of course I'm willing to teach you but you now the rules.

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easel

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Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO
Reply #27 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:56pm

tallowood wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:47pm:

easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 6:18pm:

I have a very limited understanding of radar, but I am sure I can understand ANYTHING you are willing to explain to me, if not I can ask questions about the points I do not grasp and you can educate me.

The whole article is about 50's era ground based and air based air radar, in the sense that is the only type of radar mentioned. It is about detecting via radar a target in the air from the ground and in the air. Did you miss that part?

So anyway, are you going to teach me, or are you too busy with google trying to teach yourself first?

So it wasn't about aircraft radar or was it? This is very important to how an error about b52 was made. Hint" the size of screen. And I still have doubts about authenticity of the story due to allegedly highly trained interceptor pilot talking about an American bomber instead of potential enemy aircraft. Also it seems strange that there was no mention about meteorological conditions in the report at the time of the incident.

Of course I'm willing to teach you but you now the rules.

Screen size does not matter. Resolution does. Or have I got that wrong tallow?

The pilot never said it was a B52. He said it was similar in size but performed like no known aircraft. He was comparing, for example, that dinosaur was as big as a bus. Get it?

Teach me then. What rules are we talking about? If you are going to play super spy, you would obviously know that 50's era radar is not going to be classified, if it was they wouldn't have examples at museums, and you can probably get better stuff off the shelf for the Sydney to Hobat yacht race.

How does a small fighter return a reading corresponding to a much larger object?

You are talking out of your arse, and you know it, and so does everyone else. For someone who instantly 'knew' it was a MiG21, who seemed to have knowledge on the 21, the part in the article where it said the aircraft was agile would have screamed out that it wasn't a 21, which through design sacrificed agility for speed.

So, Mr MiG and radar expert, please explain your reasonings behind your nonsense claims.

Until you can do that I am going to cease responding to your fairytales.

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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO Reply #28 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 7:03pm A quick google tells me the 21 is agile. Yet you never raised this fallacy I made.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: US pilot told to shoot down UFO Reply #29 - Oct 24^th, 2008 at 7:08pm easel wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 7:03pm: A quick google tells me the 21 is agile. Yet you never raised this fallacy I made. Show to me where I claimed to be a MIG expert. Also which Mig21 are you talking about?
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