Now I have learned a lot more about Islam than I ever wanted to know, I personally would have preferred to just have been happy thinking of it as another religious belief, which I have no need of.

Unfortunately that all changed in '79, when crackpot Khomenei came to power in Iran, and we saw the outcome of radical Islam on our TV's.

Of course their are unresolvable debates about past wrongs, and that cannot be changed, or ever agreed about to everyone's satisfaction, so I was hoping that we could not pursue that in this thread.

What I was hoping to see was people's ideas about how they see Islam and the west co-existing peacefully.

Does the west need to radically change it's behaviour towards, and stance about Islam?

Does Islam need to change itself, and promote a more progressive, less dogmatic set of values for it's followers?

Is either of the above options ever likely to happen, or even possible?

If you cannot see either happening, do you see confrontation as inevitable?

If you see this confrontation as inevitable, do you think having large muslim populations in western countries, as something that needs to be discouraged, or even banned?

Now I personally, can see the possibility of the west moderating it's behaviour towards Islam, and believe it would be our best, and most morally responsible choice.

As to whether Islam is capable of exacting internal, systemic, change, I really do not know enough to say, I certainly hope so, but my very limited experience, leaves me with unresolved concerns that the will to do so is decidedly lacking amongst muslims.

I think back to the days when the Soviets were vilified as mindless aggressors, bent on world domination, and that was not without some validity, certainly amongst the elite, ruling class, of the soviets, but then, as now, I thought of the average family, that has no desire for anything but peace, prosperity, and opportunity, for themselves and their families, and my hope is that once more, PEOPLE power, can turn something mindless and violent, into something more human.

Great thread mozzaok.

I think individuals own sense of freedom will win out.

I think islam is imploding

Well I don't really know, but I thought the wahabbi cult within Islam grew in the 17th century, which was well into it's decline, and possibly as a reaction to growing western influence.

That does raise a very good issue, which is whether extremism is a "natural" Islamic reaction, to loss of influence?

I find much of the koran problematic, as I do much of the bible, but I see most christian religions focusing on the positive bible messages, rather than the ugly ones, I wonder if Islam is capable of making similiar progress?

Perhaps we can see Islamic practices like stoning, go the same way as the christian tortures of the Inquisition period.

I know that for christianity it was an evolutionary, rather than a revolutionary change of behaviour, and I do not know if we have time to wait for Islam to Evolve, it needs change, and needs it now.

lol
The Inquisition and its counterparts are more political than religious Mozz...  ever heard of the Cathars?  The Albigensian Crusade?  These were days when secularism wasn't a part of everyday life.

islam is a complete way of life Mozz...  not just something for Sundays.  there is no division of state and religion in true Islam.

Quote:


Well I can only ever see that fact as a terrible negative, which Islam must overcome, if it is ever to progress and be accepted as a true religious belief, rather than a quasi religious, political movement.

Politics and religion are incompatible.

Power corrupts, absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

Examination of any political scenario where an authoritarian regime rules indefinitely, and you see a progression towards indulgent and despotic excesses, which are not conducive to societies advancement, or respect for human rights.

Islam needs to be separate from politics, if it is to progress.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 11:31am:





".....As to whether Islam is capable of exacting internal, systemic, change, I really do not know enough to say...."



mozzaok,

All devout muslims KNOW, already, that ISLAM is perfect.

ISLAM does not require reform, or 'systemic change'.

Why would you want to change something which you KNOW, is already perfect????
....[i speak as with a muslim mind]



++++++

And that, is the problem mozzaok.

There is absolutely no chance of muslims [the ones that count] reforming ISLAM.

Any ppl, including devout muslims, who study ISLAMIC texts know this.




mozzaok,

All devout muslims already know that ISALM is Allah's perfect religion.
....and for a muslim to suggest ISLAM could be 'reformed' is fatal [i mean....within Sharia jurisdictions, ppl who would mouth such thoughts make themselves targets of murder, for their apostasy].


EXAMPLE....

May 14, 2008
Afghan teacher shot dead after speech condemning suicide bombings
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021017.php
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/14/asia/AS-GEN-Afghan-Teacher-Killed.php



APOSTASY IN ISLAM
"Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.
The FOUR MAJOR SUNNI AND THE ONE MAJOR SHIA MADH'HAB (SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE) AGREE that a sane adult male apostate must be executed......"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam





We non-muslims should also consider the person of Muhammad.

All devout muslims [today] are taught from childhood, that Muhammad was the, the, the, perfect muslim, and the example of a man which all muslims should seek to emulate.

Who was Muhammad ???

What sort of life did he follow?

We [non-muslims] should all seek, to find out the answers to those Q's too!

Google,
Muhammad perfect example to muslims
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Muhammad+perfect+example+to+muslims&btnG...

Well I guess I agree, but only up to a point.

Any religion is more than it's text, it is it's people.

I gave the soviet analogy because of the enmity that was displayed against the west, and the level of open malevolence from your average ruski of the day, was pretty full on.
The crooked commissars would spruik the populace into a frenzy of hatred, and mayday parades would see hundreds of thousands chanting slogans for all they were worth, but it was not sustainable, because the ordinary family man does not really care about that crap.

I cannot help but think that Islam should be the same, once the fear of being accused of not being a strident enough muslim starts to fade then we could well see the lunacy take a back seat, and good old family values promoted.