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NorthOfNorth

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Buddhist Koan
Oct 25^th, 2008 at 5:21pm

I asked a monk sitting by a pond, who works the hardest at seeking truth?

Why, that’s easy, he told me…. the hardest searchers, he said.

And who are the hardest searchers? I asked.

Easy again, he replied, the needers, the sinners, the takers, the losers, the weepers… most groveling drunks and all broken fools.

So which are you? I replied.

None of them, he answered. I’ve never worked hard for anything in my life.

Then why did you become a monk? I asked

I couldn’t think of anything better to do, he replied.

It was then he stood up and walked across the pond to the other side.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #1 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 5:40pm

helian,

Good one.

But you lost me, on the last line.

Wink

++++++

RIVER
I know you have questions.

MAL
That would be why I just asked them.

RIVER
But there isn't a lot of time, captain. I need you to trust me.

MAL
Am I dreaming?

RIVER
We all are.

Firefly - Objects in Space
by Joss Whedon

Did 'River' get it right?

Are you still 'dreaming'?

Or have you 'awoken'?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #2 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 5:56pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 5:40pm:

helian,

Good one.

But you lost me, on the last line.

I shouldn't really explain it (diminishes the personal interpretation of the koan)... but anyway...

The monk was referring to the great middle way, in that those who work too hard from the greatest need have little chance of becoming enlightened (or comprehending ultimate truth). Similarly (deceptively alluded to in the monk's reply that he's never worked hard) the lazy will not become enlightened. Only through right measure will one be enlightened. When he walked across the pond, he demonstrated (in metaphor) to the enquirer that he had achieved enlightenment.

The koan should end (as a good koan should) with something like ...

It was then he stood up and walked across the pond to the other side.

At that moment I found the path to truth.

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« Last Edit: Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:26pm by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #3 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 5:56pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 5:40pm:

helian,

Good one.

But you lost me, on the last line.

I shouldn't really explain it (diminishes the personal interpretation of the koan)... but anyway...

The monk was referring to the great middle way, in that those who work too hard from the greatest need have little chance of becoming enlightened (or comprehending ultimate truth). Similarly (deceptively alluded to in the monk's reply that he's never worked hard) the lazy will not become enlightened. Only though right measure will one be enlightened. When he walked across the pond, he demonstrated (in metaphor) to the enquirer that he had achieved enlightenment.

The koan should end (as a good koan should) with something like ...

It was then he stood up and walked across the pond to the other side.

At that moment I found the path to truth.

".......When he walked across the pond, he demonstrated (in metaphor) to the enquirer that he had achieved enlightenment......"

helian,
I am sure that if i had been that monk, the reason i got up and walked across the pond, would have been to elude that pesky questioner, who had been disturbing my peaceful meditation.

Wink

Search within.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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TWO GRAVES IN GALLIPOLI
Reply #4 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:12pm

excerpt from TWO GRAVES IN GALLIPOLI

E. M. Forster (1922)

Scene: the summit of Achi Baba, an exposed spot, looking out across the Dardanelles towards Asia and the East. In a crevice between the rocks lie two graves covered by a single heap of stones. No monument marks them, for they escaped notice during the official survey, and the heap of stones has blended into the desolate and austere outline of the hill. The peninsula is turning towards the sun, and as the rays strike Achi Baba the graves begin to speak.

...

FIRST GRAVE: It will make our heap of stones for ever England, apparently.

SECOND GRAVE: It can scarcely do that to my portion of it. I was a Turk.

FIRST GRAVE: What! A Turk! You a Turk? And I have lain beside you for seven years and never known!

SECOND GRAVE: How should you have known? What is there to know except that I am your brother?

FIRST GRAVE: I am yours...

SECOND GRAVE: All is dead except that. All graves are one. It is their unity that sanctifies them, and some day even the living will learn this.

FIRST GRAVE: Ah, but why can they not learn it while they are still alive?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #5 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:14pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:10pm:

".......When he walked across the pond, he demonstrated (in metaphor) to the enquirer that he had achieved enlightenment......"

helian,
I am sure that if i had been that monk, the reason i got up and walked across the pond, would have been to elude that pesky questioner, who had been disturbing my peaceful meditation.

Wink

Search within.

10/10

That's exactly how a koan should work. You interpret the koan depending on your karma.

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Yadda

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #6 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:35pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:14pm:

10/10

That's exactly how a koan should work. You interpret the koan depending on your karma.

Dictionary,
koan = = a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to show the inadequacy of logical reasoning and provoke enlightenment.

helian,

I have a theory.

Our life is a 'koan'.

++++++

I believe in God, who is a spirit.

I believe we [all mankind] are spirits, locked within earthen bodies.

This life is 'going to school'.
....until we return to our spirit father.

[Christian]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #7 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:41pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:35pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:14pm:

10/10

That's exactly how a koan should work. You interpret the koan depending on your karma.

Dictionary,
koan = = a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to show the inadequacy of logical reasoning and provoke enlightenment.

helian,

I have a theory.

Our life is a 'koan'.

++++++

I believe in God, who is a spirit.

I believe we [all mankind] are spirits, locked within earthen bodies.

This life is 'going to school'.
....until we return to our spirit father.

[Christian]

Were you provoked?

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21652 A cat with a view	Re: Buddhist Koan Reply #8 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 7:01pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:41pm: Were you provoked? helian, I always try very hard, not to be [provoked]. But i am human. When we are provoked, we are not here & now. Are we? And the whole point of being here, is to be. .....er, here & now.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #9 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 7:16pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 7:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 6:41pm:

Were you provoked?

helian,

I always try very hard, not to be [provoked].

But i am human.

When we are provoked, we are not here & now.

Are we?

And the whole point of being here, is to be.

.....er, here & now.

Quote:

Dictionary,
koan = = a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to show the inadequacy of logical reasoning and provoke enlightenment.

So did the koan provoke enlightenment?

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6007	Re: Buddhist Koan Reply #10 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 9:08pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 7:16pm: ... So did the koan provoke enlightenment? I know the koan that provokes appetite "Pizza, the cheesiest in town, said once to his master, “Master Zen, how can I enter the stream?” Master Zen, pounded the Pizza’s dough with his stick until it was soft and ready to be served."
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #11 - Oct 25^th, 2008 at 9:34pm

tallowood wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 9:08pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 7:16pm:

...
So did the koan provoke enlightenment?

I know the koan that provokes appetite

"Pizza, the cheesiest in town, said once to his master, “Master Zen, how can I enter the stream?”
Master Zen, pounded the Pizza’s dough with his stick until it was soft and ready to be served."

And once did he call Domino's Pizza?

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Buddhist Koan Reply #12 - Oct 26^th, 2008 at 7:09am A Buddhist monk joins the hamburger queue at a street vendor and says "Makes me one with everything" The vendor makes his burger and says "That will be $7.50" The monk hands over a 50, which the vendor accepts and says - Next please! - but what about my change? - change comes from within.
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Yadda

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #13 - Oct 26^th, 2008 at 3:55pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 7:16pm:

Were you provoked?

Quote:

Dictionary,
koan = = a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to show the inadequacy of logical reasoning and provoke enlightenment.

So did the koan provoke enlightenment?

Ahhhh!

++++++

helian,

In answer to your question.

No.

And perhaps in confirmation of the assertion of 'the inadequacy of logical reasoning [to] provoke enlightenment', let me attempt to use [futile] reason to explain why the path to my own enlightenment is a difficult one.

Due to my nature, and like so many others, i am distracted by the superficial, and i am distracted by the influences of this material world.

Sadly, i am still too often focused on the influences of this material world, to be enlightened by a passing koan.

It is indeed difficult to meditate upon the spiritual [as we should], when we are at all times assaulted by the demands of the physical.

And indeed every day, this material world hammers home to us, the truth of,
...."To live, is to suffer."

And yet, i do agree, i do believe, that meditating upon the anecdotes, riddles, and the parables of this life, is a good path, for those who would search for enlightenment and truth.

And yet sadly, many of us in this life, choose to dismiss that search for enlightenment and truth.

And in almost all things, we attach ourselves to our desires, and to the things that are of this material world.

A proverb comes to mind,

"It is well to learn caution by the misfortunes of others."
Publilius Syrus

i.e.
It is better for us to be instructed, by observing the misfortunes of others, rather than to suffer the 'instruction' of our own ill-considered actions.

And yet, we humans do seem to insist upon intimately knowing the exquisite 'instruction', that flows from personal experiences [mistakes].

And our lessons learnt from this school class [this life] seem to still flow freely, and confirm, that,
...."Suffering arises from our desire/attachment."

The Preacher speaks here, of the days of men's lives...

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

and,

Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Many, many ppl [in this life] are not searching, and have no perception that we [i.e. our earthen bodies] are the 'hosts' of [all] those spirits, which we 'allow', and welcome.

And here , i am reminded of that name attributed to God, throughout the Old Testament, the 'LORD of hosts'.
....a search of the KJV bible results in 245 hits for that phrase.

We ourselves, are the gatekeepers of our souls.
....and what desires do you welcome into your heart?

Psalms 25:12
What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Buddhist Koan
Reply #14 - Oct 26^th, 2008 at 4:00pm

muso wrote on Oct 26^th, 2008 at 7:09am:

A Buddhist monk joins the hamburger queue at a street vendor and says "Makes me one with everything"
The vendor makes his burger and says "That will be $7.50"

The monk hands over a 50, which the vendor accepts and says

- Next please!

- but what about my change?

- change comes from within.

muso,

That is a cruel lesson.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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