Australian Politics Forum - what made you become a Muslim?

Grendel

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #105 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:32pm

[mod: if it's modded once, why say it again, except out of outright defiance and flouting of the rules] not even a real word lol

and hardly crude given the context Aboo...

But I will accept your opinion... even if I don't agree.

Now where were we... oh yes... your incorrect idea Christian beliefs... I'd have thought like me you'd have problems with other Catholic ideas like that of confession and praying to Saints or Mary etc...

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« Last Edit: Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:40pm by abu_rashid »

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Soren

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #106 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:41pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

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Mohammed did not read or study any of the books of the Biblee. This is not sslnder but a fact

That's right, because his message is from God. There's no need for him to study corrupted works. That doesn't amount to ignorance. Either way, you know that criticising religious figures here like that is not allowed. Please refrain from doing so. If you wish to make the point you made, do it in a more respectful way.

Mohammed did not read or study either the jewish or the christian texts.
Slander? Of course not.

Not having read or studied them, he was ignorant of them, as he was ignorant of buddhist, taoist, mayan and inca texts.
Slander? No.

You idolise, not to say deify, the man to a disconcerting degree.

And this is about you, not him, before you delete or modify the post.

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #107 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:43pm

Quote:

Now where were we... oh yes... your incorrect idea Christian beliefs... I'd have thought like me you'd have problems with other Catholic ideas like that of confession and praying to Saints or Mary etc

Those things are just an extension of the Trinity idea. Once you make God into 3 persons, and pray to a human form, then praying to other human forms is just the next step. Confession is not purely Catholic either, as I already mentioned to you, it exists in the Orthodox and some Protestant traditions also. But again is just an extenion of the Trinity. If a man is worshipped, then confessing sins to another man also another step in that direction. Although confession isn't exactly polytheistic, unless the confessor believes the one confessed to can forgive the sins or something. But it's still a deplorable behaviour. God covers our sins for us to repent and change our ways, not to go and publically declare them to someone, who then could probably be encouraged by hearing about it.

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Soren

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #108 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 10:00pm

There is a lot to dicuss there but one thing is to be remembered: religion is about this life, about how to live.

A confession is like saying sorry - you can't keep it to yourelf. We can argue with the Catholics about sanctifying the priest as an quasi-intermediary but you need to tune your ear to the movement of the heart, to the idea and longing that wants to express itself.
As to worshipping a man in jesus - no christian is worshipping a man. Any man or woman needs to be sanctified (made sacred) before prayers are offered. This is a simple recognition of degrees, of steps, of gradualness. Dante captured it. Literature does teach how to tune the ear and the mind and the heart. (So does music)

Muslims don't worrship mohammed either but there is a degree of idolisation, albeit without depiction, that is revealing of the muslim heart that wishes to adore. Islam, like all religions, is of the heart first. Let that shine through, don't block its light with man-invernted dogma.

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Grendel

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #109 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 10:01pm

Not purely Catholic? Did I say they were?

Oh right you just thought you'd try to negate what I said even though it was correct.

Like I have continually said Catholicism is NOT Christianity... not a Catholic obviously eh. Criticise them and their beliefs all you like but don't call them Christian like all Christians believe the same or adhere to their beliefs.

Oh and even if you do i wont take it personally or label it an attack on Christianity. you need to learn that behaviour and apply iot to your own beliefs.

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« Last Edit: Nov 16^th, 2008 at 10:11pm by Grendel »

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freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #110 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 10:05pm

This is getting a bit silly. I've never heard a Christian equate the trinity with three Gods. A good analogy is the dual nature of matter. It doesn;t mean that the apple in front of you is actually two apples, one a particle and the other a wave. This seems more to be a deliberate misconception, which is hardly a solid foundation for faith. It's rather childish and I hope Abu is the only Muslim here who claims this.

Christianity does not claim 3 Gods in one, but one God in three.

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It means they've ascribed partners to God

Isn't that like saying your left foot is your partner?

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Being a monotheist means believing God controls every little thing that exists

No it doesn't. It means believing in one god.

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Of course God answers prayers.

Isn't that a form of intervention?

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You say Christians believe in monotheism, but God is 3 persons... that's 3 gods, sorry.

Not according to Christians. Why on earth don't you defer to them for what their religion is about?

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Once you make God into 3 persons, and pray to a human form, then praying to other human forms is just the next step.

Christians do not make God to be 3 persons. You may see that as the next step, but Christians don't.

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Soren

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #111 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 10:18pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:43pm:

Those things are just an extension of the Trinity idea. Once you make God into 3 persons, and pray to a human form, then praying to other human forms is just the next step.

On something completely different... do you beak your boiled eggs on the pointy end or the round end?

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« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:46pm by Soren »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #112 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 11:11pm

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 10:18pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:43pm:

Those things are just an extension of the Trinity idea. Once you make God into 3 persons, and pray to a human form, then praying to other human forms is just the next step.

On something completely different... do you beak your boild eggs on the pointy end or the round end?

Aye, I beak me bolid eegs fro the poonty ind and nay not eer the roond syde...

James Joyce, eat your heart out.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #113 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 5:25am

soren,

Quote:

As to worshipping a man in jesus - no christian is worshipping a man.

Jesus (pbuh) was a man, this is stated quite clearly in the NT. Whoever worships him, worships a creation, a man, someone who eats, someone who is dependant upon the actual Creator, who alone, is worthy of worship.

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This is a simple recognition of degrees, of steps, of gradualness. Dante captured it. Literature does teach how to tune the ear and the mind and the heart. (So does music)

Degrees or steps towards outright paganism, agreed.

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Muslims don't worrship mohammed either but there is a degree of idolisation

There is no idolisation at all, there is only emulation. He is our example to be emulated, anyone who idolises Muhammad (pbuh) is astray and outside the fold of Islam.

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #114 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 5:38am

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I've never heard a Christian equate the trinity with three Gods.

That's because they know the Bible is full of monotheism, and that polytheism is in complete contradiction to the Bible. Doesn't change the fact 3 = 3 and 3 != 1.

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A good analogy is the dual nature of matter.

Or the dualistic polytheism of the Zoroastrians which they too claim to be a form of monotheism... Nice analogy.

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Christianity does not claim 3 Gods in one, but one God in three.

You can try to rationalise it however you like, the fact is there's 3 distinct entities that they claim make up God. Jesus (pbuh) prayed to God and asked why God had forsaken him. The same entity would not do those things, obviously only seperate entities would pray one to the other.

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Isn't that like saying your left foot is your partner?

God is one, God is not composed of components. Therefore your analogy is just ridiculous.

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No it doesn't. It means believing in one god.

One of the implications of monotheism is that God is overall controller of all that exists. Ponder it a little.

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Isn't that a form of intervention?

As I already stated, we believe God controls all that exists, and therefore is quite interventionist. I don't know what kind of a revelation you think you stumbled onto there??

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Not according to Christians. Why on earth don't you defer to them for what their religion is about?

I do, and they believe God is 3 entities... this is polytheism.

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Christians do not make God to be 3 persons

Wikipedia article on the Trinity:
Quote:

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #115 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 5:48am

Here are a few excerpts from the Athanasian creed, the 6th. century reaffirmation of the Nicene Creed, which is also considered by most Churches to be binding doctrine:

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For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

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but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

So I do defer to them freediver, you are the one who doesn't, and simply hasn't studied what they actually believe.

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freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #116 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 8:50am

Rintrah wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 11:27pm:

All action, by all people, occurs within the scope of Allah (swt), shaitan is as much a servant of Allah (swt) as we all are, we just exist in different levels of acknoweledgement of this fact. That is why Imam Ghazzali defined the truest measure of disbelief as being whether or not an individual, when confronted with the evidence, called the Prophet (sws) a liar.

Mohammed (sws) was a perfect human being, not in that he had an absence of error, but that he had is possessing of no imperfection of intention, which in Islam is the measure of sin.

The above two are important ways in which Christianity and Islam differ. For Christians, many assume that God somehow does not control satan, and that the fall of humankind was a rebellion against God. For Muslims, a rebellion against God is impossible, for one cannot rebel against an all powerful being. We perform actions within the scope of Allah's (swt) creation, but not outside the Divine Will of God. Thus sin is willed by God (as shown in a hadith that refers to humankind being erased were it not to sin) as it is a reflection of one of His divine names: the Rahmen, as mercy cannot occur without action that deserves mercy.

The Christian conception of Christ is of a being without error and without sin, yet a being that questions his fate 'forsaken me', a 'part' of the 'one' that prays to himself.

The idea that God or Islam could be 'evil' is illogical. As 'evil' is not an 'objective' concept. If we accept that Allah (swt) is the one God, and the submission to this fact is the perfection of humanity, then it follows that what is not submission is evil, and what is, is good.

Similarly if one denies this fact, and creates his or her own gods and prophets, what is not alligned with that world view will be evil in turn. So yes, Islam could be 'evil' if 'evil' is defined as being that which a non Muslim is not.

So Islam is fatalistic? There is no free will? One cannot rebel against God, because that rebellion would have to be willed by God in the first place? I think this is a fundamentally different view of God.

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That's because they know the Bible is full of monotheism

This just keeps getting more and more absurd. You argue that Christians are polytheists, but they don't believe in multiple gods because they know the bible is monotheistic?

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You can try to rationalise it however you like, the fact is there's 3 distinct entities that they claim make up God.

I have two arms, two legs, a nose, a mouth etc. Does this make me many people?

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I do, and they believe God is 3 entities... this is polytheism.

No. Polyehism is believing in many Gods.

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The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons

Did you actually read that Abu? It says one God.

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but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

How many Gods again Abu?

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So I do defer to them freediver

So you changed your mind? Christianity is about one God now?

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« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:19am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #117 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:43am

Abu this thread was really interesting for a while, because a number of Muslims did step up and explain why they became Muslims. They were even answering questions and giving further explanations. But then you turned it into this childish attack on Christianity. Don't you think it defeats the purpose of modding an Islam board if you try so hard to stop people discussing Islam? Why not just let those members who were willing to explain why they became Muslim give their views on what they see as deficient in Christianity? Or, you could explain what drew you to Islam, rather than just attacking other religions.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #118 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:47am

Quote:

This just keeps getting more and more absurd. You argue that Christians are polytheists, but they don't believe in multiple gods because they know the bible is monotheistic?

Where did I say they don't believe in multiple gods?

I said they like to pay lip service to monotheism, otherwise they'd be too out of step with the OT.

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I have two arms, two legs, a nose, a mouth etc. Does this make me many people?

You're a human being, God is not a human being.

Also I've already posted excerpts from one of their founding doctrinal statements, which clearly says they believe in 3 persons. Why do you still insist on arguing this point?

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How many Gods again Abu?

It says 3 persons, yet you're still arguing it doesn't in your post. It's pure psycho-babble, 3 persons, yet one God... Come on, discarding logic and common sense now are we freediver?

Also as has been pointed out, most other polytheists also claim God is actually one, but they just worship 5 or 20 or 300 different forms/entities/persons/manifestations of the ONE GOD. In the end, it's all polytheism, with lip service to monotheism, as they know deep in their hearts monotheism is the only true belief.

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So you changed your mind? Christianity is about one God now?

Nope, I quoted for you from their creed, they belief in 3 distinct persons... This is polytheism. Trying to make some arbitrary difference between persons and gods is just ridiculous. It's 3 entities, manifestations, persons, forms whatever you wanna call it, it's all divergance from monotheism.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #119 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:50am Told you fd... denial runs deep in this one... leave it there's no point it rocks his belief and reasons for becoming Muslim.
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