I don't remember stating I believed in Christianity before I became Muslim...

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I apologise, I didn't go into my explorations into Christianity as I probably should have. I looked into Macedonian Orthodox, Irish Catholic, Church of England, Uniting Church and even a Pentecostal version of Christianity. In my explorations I sat down with various priests and pastors, set up by a missionary friend who was eager that I become Christian again. She, nor any of the other people I met could adequately present to me how exactly what I percieved as their fractured god could be explained logically.

It was not only that, I found the Bible to be lacking in clarity or consistency as I had studied it extensively as a historical text, and it was so blatently a product of its time (referring to the NT). I found the history around the council of Nicea and the divinity of Christ disturbing. I also thought that the idea that somehow ethics and politics could be seperated was ludicrous 'Give unto Caesar etc'. I looked at the historical conduct of the Church and I was hard pressed to find examples of 'normal' Christian rulers that were great because of their Christian ethics. Rather I found those who shouted loudly about their Christianity were those most likely to be oppressors (from Spain to the 'Holy Roman Empire'). I also found huge problem in the idea of forced conversion (seperate from political expansion) especially as it was experienced in the Iberian peninsula with the Jews and in Scandanavia and Germany with the Pagans.

My conception of Christianity could not be seperated from historical trends in its practice and like it or not, that practice was for much of history defined by the Roman Catholic church. Simply saying that the Roman Catholics are not legitimate Christians does not erase the fact that they are the roots of almost all 'Christian' groups (not all of course).

I guess finally I saw very little Christianity in Christians. In Muslims I have found the more religious the person the more Adab they have (manners). Even individuals who I would term as 'extremists' that I have met, have had excellent adab and respect for those around them, especially in debate. The Muslims that I know that are 'on their deen' fill their lives with the religion and you see it in everything they do, from saying the Bismillah before they eat to serving all others before they sit. I found even religious Christians left their prayer to Sundays and many simply lacked adab.

I do not want to misrepresent Christians and obviously my own experience is necessarily limited, but considering I did more research than most people would bother with, surely by now I would have seen something to endear me to Christianity?

I hope that more adequately answers your question?

Apology accepted.

I'm sorry Rin but several things come to mind...  you never spoke to any Unitarian...  BTW it looks to me except for the Uniting you tended to go to the "heavier" versions as well... why no Evangelicals?   Pentacostals were enough I suppose.

Funny I wouldn't expect the Uniting to push the Trinity certainly not in the Catholic sense.  Nor saints nor confession.

If you can't see that all Christians worship One God though... you just aren't trying.

As for the Bible vs the Koran...  sorry, but the Koran has to be one of the most confused, contradictory, unclear texts of all time.  Hence it's constant requirement for interpretation.

As for Politics... Islam is a way of life and embraces politics and many other aspects of life doesn't it.

Manners in some respects would seem to me to be more related to nationality and culture, but then Islam is all that too isn't it.  Australians for example have a more direct "manner"  they don't hide behind a facade or alternate face... what you see is what you get.

Australia is a secular Western society so the 'manners' will reflect this. Perhaps a change of country would be more appropriate?  

Mind you... time and time again Australians prove themselves one of the most generous and compassionate peoples of the world and not only to people of their own dominant faith...  Christianity.

There are none so blind as those that will not see Rin...  

Your experiences are your experiences, I have no problem with you choosing any faith or even disbelief...  for whatever logical, factual or illogical, fictional reasons  

Not to worry, we both believe in judgement day and one of us will have been right.  

I'm sure you mentioned it...  maybe I got you confused with another convert.

You have a huge denial spot Aboo...  are you serious?

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Roman Catholicism as practiced by my Irish relatives like my Grandma (who disowned me when I became Muslim).
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I did not believe that I would have to search high and low in every Christian sect in order to find the character of the religion. The very first Muslim I spoke to answered my questions without flaws that I could find. While the priests and pastors and missionaries could not answer me with any clarity.

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It was something about God having a 'Son' that made this difficult for me to accept. I do not mean to disrespect, but considering that the entire premise for the mercy of God in Christianity is based on the sacrifice of Christ, I simply could not believe in a God that is able to suffer, and considering that He is supposedly All Powerful, that He would therefore be harming Himself.

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I would respectfully ask if you have read the Qu'ran in Arabic? How much tafsir have you done? What would you say was ambiguous or confused about Surah Fatihah? Or Surah Ikhlas for that matter:
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I would humbly put forth that simply because one does not understand something, does not mean that that which is to be understood is incomprehensible.

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My experience as 3rd generation 'Australian' tells me otherwise.. this does not diminish your experiences of course and you are entitled to them, but I have found that among 'Aussies' good manners, selflessness and respect were seemingly distributed fairly arbitrarily throughout the people I knew, however among Muslims I have found that such traits increase with religiosity. It was not my intention to say that 'Australians' or people of other religions lack such traits, merely that they do not correlate with their religiosity.


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I would not go so far as to imply what you imply here, I would respectfully request that you would not dismiss the compassion of the entire world except Australia, especially while citing no reason for your generalisation. I know we are both speaking anecdotally, but this could be seen as going too far.

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Indeed, and I make dua that the end of days finds us both happy in Jannah (heaven), amin.

Grendel wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:06pm:


lol @ Grendel commenting on books he has never read.

Is it any wonder why no one takes what has to say seriously.

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The hadith are used for legal interpretation, not for criticism. We are not a tradition of literary criticism, our religion does not come from literary critique, that would make us like the Jews in their enterpretations of the Torah. Our tradition is living, and comes to us through chains of transmission of practice and knoweledge. That Hadith are used to gain meaning from the Qu'ran does not mean that Hadith are criticising or critiquing the Qu'ran... it is simply a means of gaining an understanding of the context and practice of the revelation.

Have you read the Qu'ran in book form (ie. not from the internet?)? Which enterpretation did you read?


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Didn't you say that turning the other cheek was incompatible with human nature?  

Would you say that telling an oppressed individual to 'turn the other cheek' would be beneficial to their welfare as a person? If someone came to kill you and your family, would you advocate submission to that person. I would not, and I believe that to do so would be irresponsible.