Australian Politics Forum - what made you become a Muslim?

freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #30 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 2:57pm

Him explaining the mechanisms of the "law" and saying that he does not support vigilantism doesn't actually explain his position.

I am noticing a bit of a pattern here - to say things that sound reassuring if the common English meaning of the words is assumed, but to mean something entirely different because the 'Islamic' meaning of the word is used.

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locutius

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #31 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 3:17pm

freediver wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 2:57pm:

Him explaining the mechanisms of the "law" and saying that he does not support vigilantism doesn't actually explain his position.

I am noticing a bit of a pattern here - to say things that sound reassuring if the common English meaning of the words is assumed, but to mean something entirely different because the 'Islamic' meaning of the word is used.

Yes FD. 3 months ago I would probably taken the statement at face value. Now I think you have to put the lawyers hat on when reading something like this.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #32 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 3:30pm That's a very fine distinction you have made there F/D What bugs me is the lack of a direct simple answer - eg, yes or no. Along with all sorts of other guff that is just obstructionist
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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #33 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:09pm

Quote:

Did he accept the fatwa as legal then and therefore it would not be an act in vigilantism. Him explaining the mechanisms of the "law" and saying that he does not support vigilantism doesn't actually explain his position.

The word 'fatwa' means legal verdict, not 'hit contract', as the mass media has twisted it to mean.

Even if it is the correct Islamic verdict that he's committed blasphemy and therefore deserving of a death sentence, that has nothing to do with there being vigilantism or not. Vigilantism means taking the law into your own hands and exacting a punishment, even if it might be the legal punishment for that crime. It refers to an individual citizen bypassing due process and carrying out sentences/judgements which can only be enacted by the state and it's judicial apparatus.

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For instance, if he held it to be law, then he would not be a vigilante if he enforced this punishment.

If you knew someone was a thief and you knew the standard penalty for theft was for instance 5 years prison, and you happened to 'lay hands' on that thief, could you hold him in your basement for 5 years??? That's vigilantism, and in both Australian law and Islamic law, it's not permissible.

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Of course I don't view his pre-muslim life that way, but I accept that both he and you do.

Well I guess you'd be a better judge of his life than he would be...

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freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #34 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:11pm

If you knew someone was a thief and you knew the standard penalty for theft was for instance 5 years prison, and you happened to 'lay hands' on that thief, could you hold him in your basement for 5 years??? That's vigilantism, and in both Australian law and Islamic law, it's not permissible.

Isn't he already convicted?

Did he basically mean that Salman did deserve to die, but that it would be better to hand him over to the responsible cleric to be executed? Because to most westerners his press release creates the impression that he does not support the death of Salman.

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locutius

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #35 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:27pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:09pm:

Quote:

Of course I don't view his pre-muslim life that way, but I accept that both he and you do.

Well I guess you'd be a better judge of his life than he would be...

Did I say that I was a better judge?? So my opinion of someones life is wrong because I am not them?? Have you by chance misjudged George Bush because you are not him?

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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #36 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:47pm

freediver,

Quote:

Isn't he already convicted?

Are you not innovative enough to expand my analogy for this scenario??

If a man, who you knew was a thief, had been convicted and sentenced to 5 years prison, then escaped before his sentence could be carried out, and you were to lay hands on him, could you keep him in your basement for 5 years?

Come on freediver, your line of questioning is really just nonsensical. I can't believe you actually waste your time thinking this nonsense up.

Quote:

Did he basically mean that Salman did deserve to die, but that it would be better to hand him over to the responsible cleric to be executed? Because to most westerners his press release creates the impression that he does not support the death of Salman.

As you've been told about 51 times now, there's no such thing as a clergy in Islam.

locutius,

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Have you by chance misjudged George Bush because you are not him?

Possibly. Although I doubt you really agree that there's much ambiguity about GWB. Do you?

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freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #37 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:53pm

As you've been told about 51 times now, there's no such thing as a clergy in Islam.

Well then what do you call the guy that issued the fatwa? Surely this does not prevent you from answering the question. Westerners are not interested in the technicalities of approved methods of execution, they are interested in whether he should be executed.

Did he basically mean that Salman did deserve to die, but that it would be better to hand him over to the 'guy that issued the fatwa' to be executed? Because to most westerners his press release creates the impression that he does not support the death of Salman.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #38 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:22pm

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As you've been told about 51 times now, there's no such thing as a clergy in Islam.

from your previous posts Abu, islam does not exist. So noone is in islam !!!

I see LOTS of muslim clerics in the papers
"Five of Australia's most powerful Islamic clerics, including Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali, have been banned from talking to the..."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Lakembas-Muslim-clerics-gagged/2007/03/09/1173166904939.html

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Grendel

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #39 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:22pm

rotflmao

A priest by any other name....

Are there no forms of Islamic clergy?

What was Sheik Hilali?
Who teaches Islam?
Who leads prayers?
What is a Caliph?
What is a Sheik?
What is an Imam?
What is a Mufti?
What is a Mullah?

A Minister is the leader of a congregation?
A Priest is a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites?

Now please don't try to tell me these don't exist in some form in Islam.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #40 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:26pm Oh, before I forget, welll done Abu on not answering the question of this thread.
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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #41 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:48pm

freediver,

Quote:

Well then what do you call the guy that issued the fatwa?

As far as I know, it was issued by an Iranian. Perhaps an ayatollah? No idea. Perhaps you can ask Malik, as I have no idea how their systems work.

grendel,

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A priest by any other name....
Are there no forms of Islamic clergy?

That's what I said, there is not.

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What was Sheik Hilali?

Community leader, that's not clergy.

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Who teaches Islam?

Anybody who's studied it, to some degree all of us do. You teach what you know. I teach my children, and some friends, to the level I am able to, as do most other Muslims. Obviously there are those who are very educated in Islam, but they're certanly not a clergy.

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Who leads prayers?

The main criteria is who knows the most Qur'an, if many people in the group memorised the whole Qur'an, then who knows the most hadith etc.

Pretty much every Muslim at some point in his/her life will lead prayers, when they find themselves the most knowledgeable of the group, or even just sometimes they'll be asked to lead, and they'll lead. Again, no clergy.

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What is a Caliph?

A head of state. A political leader, not clergy.

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What is a Sheik?

The word "Sheikh" literally just means 'old man'. Again, not a clergy.

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What is an Imam?

Imam literally means 'one in front'. Just the guy who happens to be standing most forward when you pray. It just means leader, doesn't mean clergy.

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What is a Mufti?

Derives from the word 'fatwa', meaning in the one qualified to give an Islamic legal verdict. It is a position of judiciary, has nothing to do with clergy.

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What is a Mullah?

Mawlah (not mullah) just means 'master'. It is a title of respect, that's common in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Not a clergy.

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Now please don't try to tell me these don't exist in some form in Islam.

A priest or a minister is a special religious class, a priestly class. Islam does not permit any such 'religious class' to exist. All Muslims must be religious and knowledgeable in their religion. All women must be modest and pious (like a nun is a religious class of Christians, covering her hair and so forth) in Islam all women must be dedicated to their religion in this way.

Now obviously you like to fit it into your experience of religion, but it just simply doesn't. Islam is a different system having a different structure, and it simply doesn't have a priestly class (or clergy), in fact in the Qur'an, the Jews and Christians are criticised for having insituted this thing. Therefore it would be forbidden for Muslims to do the same.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #42 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:49pm still not answered the question abu ??
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #43 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:53pm What are you mister answer-monitor or something? If it bugs you so much and you're just itching to see my answer, and can't, then as I said, move along.
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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #44 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:56pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 8:49pm: still not answered the question abu ?? Your joking aren't you. He answered all the questions..rather well I might add. Maybe your just to thick in the head to realise it.
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