Australian Politics Forum - what made you become a Muslim?

abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #90 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 6:56pm

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So it's not significantly different from the reforminst movements that reject the trinity? Is the concept of Jesus as the son of God polytheistic?

Yes it is still quite different, and yes believing God has offspring is polytheistic, as it's applying human characteristics to God, and this implies that God is just another creature like us.

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Is there a fundamentally different view on the 'presence' of God?

God is omnipresent in Islam, nearer to you than your jugular..

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Does Islam differ significantly on it's concept of God in any way other than focussing on 'pure' monotheism?

Most probably.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #91 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 6:58pm pointless fd... on this he is clueless and brainwashed. All his bias and reason for conversion would collapse if he admitted anything.
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freediver

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #92 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 7:52pm

From what I can tell (so far), the 'nature of God' seems to be the same in Islam and Christianity, except for the claim of Muslims that Christianity is polytheistic. That is, the presence of the son and the holy spirit does not seem to change the nature of God. Maybe some of the ex-Christian converts can elaborate on this.

Does Islam also reject the notion of an interventionist God that Christianity holds? That is, do Muslims believe that once Muhammed was gone God was not going to interfere again, or even communicate in some way? Like, God does not 'answer' prayers? Until some kind of second coming, or the end of the world? To what extent does Christian doctrine incorporate interventionism?

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #93 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 7:55pm no... they are both monotheistic... ie they believe in ONE TRUE GOD... the nature of God is where some Christians differ in opinion. but in the end they all pray to the One True God... as Jesus taught OUR FATHER... not our 3 personed God etc, etc, etc.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48850 At my desk.	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #94 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:00pm Yes Grendel I get that. I just don't see any point in trying to convince those who believe it is polytheism. I am asking them what they believe, not trying to say which belief is 'right'. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that there are 3 'competing' or separate Gods in Christianity.
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Grendel

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #95 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:05pm

I'm not saying which belief is right either... I believe in one God so in that respect I believe the same thing as Aboo a point we have mentioned b4.

But the NATURE of GOD is different than believing in GODS. Which is my point.

Even Catholics with whom I disagree with greatly on many things still believe in ONE GOD... they just have a different idea of the NATURE of GOD.

It is obvious that Aboos concepts of Christianity is wrong... but conceding that point to make him feel good is also wrong.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #96 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:29pm

Just for the record, I believe Hinduism proclaims itself monotheistic as well. The multiple "gods" in Hinduism, I guess, are metaphors for the infinite possible aspects that is the one God (as I sit here surrounded by images of Shiva, Ganesha, Hanuman and Tara)

But as for defining the nature of God... I prefer the concept of God that Meister Eckhart left us... implying a wordless, transcendental experience of "Godness"... Such that the nature of one's awareness of God is infinite and personal containing all things within including itself, perceived only as a whole, or not perceived at all.

God is above all understanding

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« Last Edit: Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:44pm by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #97 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:39pm

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Just for the record, I believe Hinduism proclaims itself monotheistic as well

Was just getting ready to type that point up myself.

Yes all polytheists proclaim that their polytheism is in essence monotheism, but that they just worship different forms of the one God... Three gods in 1 God is not monotheism, it is polytheism, plain and simple. Jesus (pbuh) himself prayed to God. God does not bow down and worship anyone, God is the worshipped. Therefore anyone who worships Jesus (pbuh) worships nothing but a fellow worshipper, not the worshipped one. And this is known as polytheism.

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #98 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:43pm

freediver,

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That is, the presence of the son and the holy spirit does not seem to change the nature of God.

It means they've ascribed partners to God, which means they no longer believe firmly in God himself, but attribute his majesty to others besides him.

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Does Islam also reject the notion of an interventionist God that Christianity holds?

Being a monotheist means believing God controls every little thing that exists, how much more interventionist can you get than that?

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That is, do Muslims believe that once Muhammed was gone God was not going to interfere again, or even communicate in some way?

The doors of revelation are closed after Muhammad (pbuh) yes. But that is to maintain the integrity of the message, not because God no longer has an 'interest' in the world. If every second nutcase can claim to have a direct line to God, then you'd end up with the mess that is the "Christian denominations".

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Like, God does not 'answer' prayers?

Of course God answers prayers.

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Grendel

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #99 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:43pm

blah blah blah eh Abooo just admit it NOT ALL CHRISTIANS as you keep stating believe in the Trinity doctrine.

Admit that even those that do... still believe in ONE TRUE GOD which is in fact monotheism.

Admit that the NATURE of God is what the Trinity doctrine is about and not that there are multiple gods.

prettyy simple really... destroys all your biased beliefs about Christianity but hey eating a bit of humble pie would do you good.

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Soren

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #100 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:49pm

The Mohammedan concept of Christian polytheism is a profound misunderstanding. It is not only a misunderstanding of Christianity but of Judaism as well.
It is a literalist misapprehension of an illiterate, or at best semiliterate, man. By any accounnt, mohammed was not a reader. He received reveelation as it became politically necessary. He neither read nor studied any part of jewish or christian books (bible, torah, penteteuch, NT, OT, whatever). Mohammed's accounts of the biblical stories - never mind the interpretations and conceptualisations - are plain and simple evidence of his [mod: you've been warned before, no slandering religious figures]

(Mohammed did not read or study any of the books of the Biblee. This is not sslnder but a fact. Ed.)

Whateveer you might think of jesus, hee new his stuff. Ditto for Paul and the other notables of the new testament. You can't fault them on learning.
When [mod: and more of the same] of what he spoke of was shown up, Muslims inventedd the idea of wilful corruption of texts by jews and christians just to slight Muhammed. A farcical notion.
[mod: same for religious texts]

(This is legitimatee textual criticism. Ed.)

I do not mean to say that you need a book as a door to god. BUT if you choose a book to be the door, you'd better make sure it is a literate one. Mohammed did not. This is partially the reason why it is as necessary for Mohammedans (I use the word advisedly) to rally aroundd him, the man. SO most edicts and exortations to the Islamic life are calls to imitate Mohammed, perfect in every way. Just because he is not to be depicted is no barrier to his idolisation. He is much more central because the concept of Allah is unsustainable, unlivable, unbelieavable. A completely transceendetal god, like Allah, is no use as a guide to life.

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« Last Edit: Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:19pm by Soren »

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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #101 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 8:59pm

Grendel,

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But the NATURE of GOD is different than believing in GODS. Which is my point. Even Catholics with whom I disagree with greatly on many things still believe in ONE GOD

That's just lip service to monotheism, nothing more.

You say Christians believe in monotheism, but God is 3 persons... that's 3 gods, sorry. Hindus likewise believe Shiva, Vishnu, Devi, Surya and Ganesha are one God, but manifested in 5 forms. They claim God is one "Saguna Brahman", The Absolute, but they just worship him through the 5 forms... It's still polytheism, plain and simple. It's basic arithmetic.

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they just have a different idea of the NATURE of GOD.

As do Hindus... that's what polytheism is, claiming God has a 'different nature', ie. one that's made up of more than one being.

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It is obvious that Aboos concepts of Christianity is wrong

Well somebody's got it wrong...

Wikipedia article on the trinity:
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Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism; and the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".

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Grendel

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #102 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:12pm

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You say Christians believe in monotheism, but God is 3 persons... that's 3 gods, sorry. Hindus likewise believe Shiva, Vishnu, Devi, Surya and Ganesha are one God, but manifested in 5 forms. They claim God is one "Saguna Brahman", The Absolute, but they just worship him through the 5 forms... It's still polytheism, plain and simple. It's basic arithmetic.

Nope never said that thats a lie... again.

I believe in One God. You know that so why lie?

I'm not Hindu. but I do like the Mahabharata.

You still fail it seems to be able to differentiate between God and His nature or the fact that there is a difference of opinion only about His nature not about there being ONE TRUE GOD.

In my belief God is God and Jesus is Jesus... that is your belief too. We differ in that you don't believe jesus was the 'Son" of God, because somehow you don't think that the creator os all can create a Son. I don't follow the logic of that at all.

Oh and don't quote Wiki to me... we already argued that and I concisely put the reality to you here.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: what made you become a Muslim? Reply #103 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:13pm LOL Soren and you call me an Islamophobe... ouch censorship sure is a [mod: no crude language thanks].
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abu_rashid

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Re: what made you become a Muslim?
Reply #104 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:24pm

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Mohammed did not read or study any of the books of the Biblee. This is not sslnder but a fact

That's right, because his message is from God. There's no need for him to study corrupted works. That doesn't amount to ignorance. Either way, you know that criticising religious figures here like that is not allowed. Please refrain from doing so. If you wish to make the point you made, do it in a more respectful way.

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