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Why the koran is not from allah ? (Read 8542 times)
mozzaok
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #15 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:50am
 
Still no inspiring koranic verses you wish to share Lestat.

I have read a fair bit of the bible, but wouldn't dream of reading the whole thing, and only a little of the koran.
Besides, they aren't supposed to be novels, are they?

I do not believe that one needs to read shakespeares complete works to appreciate the beauty and wonderful messages contained within.

What is Allah's problem? He can't compete with a medieval englishman?
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Lestat
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #16 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:57am
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:50am:
Still no inspiring koranic verses you wish to share Lestat.

I have read a fair bit of the bible, but wouldn't dream of reading the whole thing, and only a little of the koran.
Besides, they aren't supposed to be novels, are they?

I do not believe that one needs to read shakespeares complete works to appreciate the beauty and wonderful messages contained within.

What is Allah's problem? He can't compete with a medieval englishman?


I am open minded enough to understand that what I find inspiring may not be inspiring to you, and quite frankly, I feel that you are so blinded that even if you did find a verse inspiring, you would not allow yourself to admit it. Therefore....it would be a futile excercise and a waste of both our time.

And given that you have admitted that you have read neither the Bible or the Quran...I am struggling to understand how you can comment on either of these books.

It would be like me stating "I think that Dawkins God Delusion is a rather mundane book and I could not find anything really profound or remotely accurate. And no...I haven't read the book'.

Or maybe a brief history of time (Hawkins...a book I have read mind you).

"Hawkins is clueless and has no idea. His book is really nonsense and heresay...all theory and no facts. I haven't read it, however, what I have heard doesn't impress me".

Sounds silly doesn't it.
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #17 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:07am
 
gaybriel - ""When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).

The sun sets in a muddy spring ?

And what are those ones about how long allah took to makle the workd ? There are varying times given.


Oh - remembered the bit about monkeys stoning another monkey because it was unfaithful to its mate !!!
monkeys get married !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #18 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:14am
 
You talking to me lestat?

There are none so blind Lestat.
I have no doubt I know more than you and not just about the Bible and Christianity.

Oh and I have answered your latest rubbish in another topic.

God chose to enlighten Moses Himself...  out in the open.  Christ chose to enlighten others Himself, out in the open.

Why would He choose to enlighten your prophet in a darkened hole in the ground through a third party?
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #19 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:19am
 
gaybriel - some more from the koran


"Yet, the Qur’an challenges these established scientific facts. In many places, it alludes to the fact that the earth is flat and its mountains are like poles which create a balance so that the Earth does not tilt. Let us consider what the Qur’an says about the Earth:

In chapter 88:17,20, it is recorded,

"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?"

In page 509, the Jalalan says,

"In his phrase, ‘how it is spread’, he denotes that the earth is flat. All the scholars of Islamic law agree upon this. It is not round as the physicists claim."

The Qur’anic teaching is obvious from the comment of Jalalan that "the earth is flat and not round as the scientists claim". What made Jalal al-Din say so is that the Qur’an hints in many chapters that the earth is flat(refer to 19:6, 79:30, 18:7, and 21:30). Also the Qur’an indicates that:

"We have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake so as not to sway and hurt people" (21:31).

Scholars who agree upon the meaning of this verse believe as the Jalalan states (pp. 270-271),

"God has founded firm mountains on earth lest it shake people."

On page 429, al-Baydawi says,

"God has made firm mountains on earth lest it sway people and quake. He also made heaven as a ceiling and kept it from falling down!"

The Zamakhshari agrees with the above authors and reiterates the same words (refer to Zamakhshari part 3, p. 114).

In the Qur’an (chapter 50:7), we find another verse which carries the same meaning,

"And the earth have we spread out, and have flung firm hills therein" (Surah Qaf: 7).

This is accompanied by the same comment by the above Muslim scholars (refer to Jalalan, p. 437; Baydawi, p. 686, Tabari, p. 589, and Zamakhshari, part 4, p. 381). All of them assure us that "if it were not for these unshakable mountains, the earth would slip away."

Zamakhshari, the Baydawi and the Jalalan say: "God has built heaven without pillars but He placed unshakable mountains on Earth lest it tilts with people." Concerning chapter 50:7, the Suyuti says that scholars indicate that "Qaf is a mountain which encompasses the entire earth" (refer to Itqan, part 3, p. 29). Qaf is an Arabic L like K.

These are the comments of the ancient Muslim scholars word for word. Even some Saudi scholars wrote a book a few years ago to disprove the spherical aspect of the earth and they claimed that it is a myth, agreed with the above mentioned scholars, and said we must believe the Qur’an and reject the spherical aspect of the earth.

It is also well-known that the Qur’an proclaims that there are seven earths—not just one (refer to the commentary of the Jalalan, p. 476, al-Baydawi, p. 745 as they interpret chapter 61:12, Surah Divorce: 1 2).

It is very clear that the sun does not traverse the heaven and set down in a murky, muddy well, or slimy water, or a place which contains both of them as the Baydawi, Zamakhshari, and the Qur’an remark.

Nor is the earth flat and the mountains the pillars and the towerings which prevent the earth from moving as the Qur’an and the scholars said. Nor is there a mountain which encompasses the whole earth—nor are there seven earths.

Neither is the lightning an angel whose name is Rafael, nor is the thunder an angel. It never happened that the angel Gabriel inspired Muhammad to write a complete chapter about his friend the angel thunder! The thunder and lightning are natural phenomena and not God’s angels like Michael and Gabriel as the prophet of Islam claims."


http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=atheism&cdn=religion&tm=173&gps=98_888_1276_851&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv6.html%23CH6

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abu_rashid
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #20 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:43am
 

Quote:
The Christian Bible makes no such claim Aboo...  How many times do people need to tell you that the OLD Testament is about God and his relationship with the Jews


The Bible refers to the OT & NT combined into one book, as Lestat already pointed out.

Anyway, don't you believe the God of the NT is the same as the God of the OT? If so, then you believe he commanded that law, and many others. Or did he all of a sudden become a reformed God? A born-again God? Interesting... Or perhaps you admit that your triune God is nothing to do with the God of the OT???
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #21 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:47am
 
YAWN...  it's not that difficult to understand what I said Aboo...  try again.

Also it's the truth...  do try to admit one such thing into your life.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #22 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:06am
 

Quote:
n chapter 88:17,20, it is recorded,
"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?"


Doesn't say flat. Do you deny the earth is 'spread'?

Quote:
In page 509, the Jalalan says,


With all due respect to the two Jalal ad-deens who wrote that commentary, it's by no means authoritative over the Qur'an itself. It is their opinion, Islamic history shows it was not a commonly held opinion amongst Islamic civilisation, as Muslim scientists had many centuries before either of the two Jalal ad-deens, calculated with great accuracy the circumference of the earth. Now as I asked you before, unless you believe flat surfaces have circumferences, then your claims are a little baseless.

Quote:
Even some Saudi scholars wrote a book a few years ago to disprove the spherical aspect of the earth and they claimed that it is a myth, agreed with the above mentioned scholars, and said we must believe the Qur’an and reject the spherical aspect of the earth.


What's the name of the book?

Quote:
gaybriel - ""When he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring and found a people thereabout. We said: ‘O Dhul-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness"’ (Surah 18:86).
The sun sets in a muddy spring ?


I think it's quite obvious the meaning is that the spring they reached was towards the horizon as the sun was setting...

I think all people for all time have known the sun sets behind the earth, not in springs or oceans even... This is one of the stupidest claims I've ever come across (not the first time I've heard it though).

I listened to this verse hundreds of times, before ever reading this pathetic claim, and I automatically always considered it to mean the spring was in the direction of the horizon as the sun was setting, probably just a more poetic way of saying "we traveled west". When I first read this claim, I just thought it was really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #23 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:36am
 
""God has founded firm mountains on earth lest it shake people."
The mountains keep the earth stable ??

no, the earth is not spread out like a tablecloth
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Gaybriel
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #24 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:44am
 
yeah sorry sprint that's not doing it for me at all

both the bible and quran are somewhat poetic texts as far as I am aware. so poetic expression does not equal logical fault.
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mozzaok
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #25 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:48am
 
Quote:
the bible and quran are somewhat poetic texts


It seems that god is a poet,
But didn't know it. Roll Eyes
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #26 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:51am
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:17am:
Anyway, this is from the new testament. Care to comment.

Mark 16:15-18 NIV) He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. {16} Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. {17} And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; {18} they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

I remember reading the transcript of the Praetorian Guard interview with Mark over those verses.

From memory it went something like...

Praetorian Officer : What sayest thou of the manner of things which thou speakest?
Mark : Please , whippest thou me not no more. Thou knowest not what it was like out there. The Gentiles didst have gods of many wonders... some with many arms and a few didst have animal heads... And one who claimest that he couldst impregnate every virgin in a village, even through a stone wall... they didst call him the rabbit.
Praetorian Officer : And this is what didst possesseth thee to prescribeth such outrageous acts?
Mark : Why verily. For surely we didst need those with ears to hear that anything their gods did ours could do better, ours could do anything better than theirs.
Praetorian Officer : No he can't
Mark : Yes he can.
Praetorian Officer : No he can't
Mark : Yes he can, yes he can, yes he caaaaan.
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2008 at 2:40pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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mozzaok
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #27 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:54am
 
Belt it out Ethel.

Grin Grin Grin, good one Helian.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #28 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 12:11pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:54am:
Belt it out Ethel.

Grin Grin Grin, good one Helian.

Yes, I remember it so well because I always thought those Hollywood musical scripts were a recent Jewish invention... but there it was in black and white... another thing the Romans have done for us.

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Lestat
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Re: Why the koran is not from allah ?
Reply #29 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 12:13pm
 
Grendel wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:14am:
You talking to me lestat?


No [mod: keep it clean]...I'm talking to that other Grendel who attacked Beowulf. Who do you think I'm talking too. I would of thought given my post was directly below yours, and addressed the points you raised, that this would be a given. Then again....I forgot the mental midget that you are. Next time I'll dumb it down for you. Will quotes do.

Grendel wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:14am:
There are none so blind Lestat.
I have no doubt I know more than you and not just about the Bible and Christianity.


Yes...you believe that if it makes you feel better.

Really Grendel...you don't even know when you've been made to look foolish, and giggle like a school girl pretending that you've won.

Really...from what you've posted, it appears you don't really know much at all.

Grendel wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:14am:
Oh and I have answered your latest rubbish in another topic.


lol...are you serious. You call that an answer? Oh dear...I've heard more coherent jibberish from my 2 year old son.

You attempted a response....you failed miserably.

Grendel wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:14am:
God chose to enlighten Moses Himself...  out in the open.  Christ chose to enlighten others Himself, out in the open.


God chose to enlighten Moses? And you know this how? Thats right...its in the old testament. (Duetronomy to be precise) So now you are actually referencing the old testament...whereas a few posts ago you clearly stated that you don't believe in it.

Which is it Grendal? Do you regard the OT....or don't you?

Who did Jesus 'enlighten' out in the open? Quick...go check google!

Grendel wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:14am:
Why would He choose to enlighten your prophet in a darkened hole in the ground through a third party?


Ahh..another comment steeped in ignorance. Have you ever heard of the Angel Gabriel?

Quick...google it. You may actually even learn that nearly all the prophets received messages from God via the Angel Gabriel. Abraham, Jacob, Lot....all 'through a third party'.

lol...and you reckon you know more then me. Yeah right...You don't even know the basics.

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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2008 at 12:55pm by abu_rashid »  
 
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