Australian Politics Forum - Islam and lying to non-Muslims

freediver

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #105 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 11:26am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 10:43pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 7:37am:

How is it loaded? What does it assume? Abu has already admitted that Islam permits concubines. I'm justy trying to figure out what they can do with them.

Just because a question is direct does not mean it is loaded.

I meant the 'why don't muslims answer questions' question

It is kind of ironic that you responded to that question with another diversion.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #106 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:45pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:10pm:

Quote:

Because it seems very obvious [to many who view ISLAM critically], that these virtuous, and rightly guided muslims, are keeping a very, very, low social profile.

In fact these real muslims appear to be totally invisible.

how would you like them to be visible? are the lives of regular australians visible? like in newspapers, on radio etc.

again- it's not a matter of any muslim being able to call up a newspaper and run a story on how they are down with australian justice system, or disagree with laws in saudi. these things simply don't sell.

and even when such stories are run (which is not often) they are seen by others as politically-correct, multiculturalist garbage. so it's lose-lose anyway.

How can muslims respond [positively, and reassuringly, within the Australian 'environment']?

By muslim clerics strongly affirming Australian values, when they speak to the media.

But it appears that the truth is, that almost no Australian [muslim] cleric endorses the Australian lifestyle and Australian democratic values.
.....[though i admit, this could be due to the reporting, and coverage given. BUT I DOUBT IT.]

EXAMPLES...

Muslim outrage over Judeo-Christian values
May 19, 2007
MUSLIMS are outraged that prospective citizens will have to acknowledge the Judeo-Christian tradition as the basis of Australia's values system.
Australia's peak Muslim body said the proposed citizenship question - revealed in the Herald Sun - was disturbing and potentially divisive.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21760652-662,00.html

Australia a Muslim nation
October 08, 2006
AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board says.
Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia.
Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia's destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20545617-1702,00.html

'Turn the world to Islam'
March 11, 2007
The faithful are told to obey only Sharia law.
....One book, Man-Made Laws Vs. Shari'ah, urges Muslims not to "accept anything from their governments and rulers except sharia", stating any other system is heresy.
http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,21985,21359122-2862,00.html

Gaybriel,

Are reports such as these untrue, and are they actually misrepresenting ISLAM in Australia?

+++++

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:10pm:

but if you want to start you could go onto muslim forums like muslimvillage or aussie muslims. you could listen to talk back radio when things to do with islam are on- muslims will often call to lend their perspective. you could meet muslims in real life and ask their opinions on things.

if you feel that these voices in australia aren't super present, it could also be to do with the fact that they represent only 2% of the population

I have met Palestinians while travelling in Europe [some years ago], and we discussed their issues over Israel.

And i have spoken to many other ISLAMISTS, on a number of web forums.

I have found that without exception, ISLAMISTS won't admit any fault.

Even when you refer them to heinous crimes committed by muslims, their response always seems to be, to say the West is worse, and the actions by muslims are justified [sanctioned], because muslims are 'defending' themselves and ISLAM.

Their responses in debate are consistent.

ISLAM, good.
Everyone else, bad.

+++++++

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:10pm:

Quote:

For as the Koran correctly states [/sarc off]....

"Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.082

and,

"Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/035.qmt.html#035.008

All of you [thinking of becoming] wicked ppl, be warned!

Allah is watching you.

so the quran is bad because it encourages people to be good?

Gaybriel,

I am not concerned when the Koran encourages 'people' to be good.

But I am concerned about the dualism exposed within the Koran, which encourages muslims to be good, to other muslims [exclusively].

e.g.
"...as a muslim....i must have *hatred* towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

The Koran is a hate manual, for a supremacist, political, ISLAM.

The Koran should be banned under legislation covering hate material.

Q.
Why isn't it???

A.
Because today, many, many, Australians are still ignorant of what ISLAM represents, and are ignorant of the hatred of non-muslims, which is espoused in the Koran and Hadith.

I would dearly like to see that circumstance change.

+++++++++

Gaybriel,

I thank you for your reasoned response, to all of the points i made in my previous post.

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« Last Edit: Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:52pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #107 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 6:10pm

Yadda,

Quote:

Because today, many, many, Australians are still ignorant of what ISLAM represents, and are ignorant of the hatred of non-muslims, which is espoused in the Koran and Hadith.

Just curious, would you permit your own holy book to be judged by the same measuring stick? I'm sure some of those verses about being commanded by God to enter cities and kill all, including young and old, women, children and maidens, and rip unborn babies from their mother's wombs would have to qualify as quite severe hatred and inciting to violence.

Or how about the Jewish Talmud? Where Jews are permitted to withhold wages from non-Jews, a Jew killing a non-Jew is not held responsible, and a Jew stealing from a non-Jew is not required to return the property he stole??

Yeh great idea, let us subject religious texts to hate legislation, I guarantee you that Judaeo-Christian books would be the first to go.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40681 Gender:	Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims Reply #108 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 6:18pm deflection. Due to threats, I cannot say anymore here.
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Soren

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #109 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 8:33pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 6:10pm:

Yadda,

Quote:

Because today, many, many, Australians are still ignorant of what ISLAM represents, and are ignorant of the hatred of non-muslims, which is espoused in the Koran and Hadith.

Just curious, would you permit your own holy book to be judged by the same measuring stick? I'm sure some of those verses about being commanded by God to enter cities and kill all, including young and old, women, children and maidens, and rip unborn babies from their mother's wombs would have to qualify as quite severe hatred and inciting to violence.

Or how about the Jewish Talmud? Where Jews are permitted to withhold wages from non-Jews, a Jew killing a non-Jew is not held responsible, and a Jew stealing from a non-Jew is not required to return the property he stole??

Yeh great idea, let us subject religious texts to hate legislation, I guarantee you that Judaeo-Christian books would be the first to go.

Every time you are asked aa question about islam's bad reputation, you always start talking about the jews. Why do you ALWAYS measuree islam by the standards of the jews?

My view is that Islam is principally about jew-hatred. You and Mohammed always bang on about the jews. Take the jews out of te picture - what is left of islam? It's all about how you hate the jews. it is all about resentment.

Try to talk about islam as if there were no jews. Or are you jewish, mr hizb?

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freediver

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #110 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 9:27pm

AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board says.
Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia.
Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia's destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.

What crap. This is a good example of Muslim spokesmen taking advantage of ignorance over Islam to spread blatant lies about it. What Australian would think their values are compatible with these Muslim standards?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

What he should have said was that some Muslim values are not totally incompatible with Australian values, while acknowledgeing that some are.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #111 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 11:54pm

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 9:27pm:

AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board says.
Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia.
Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia's destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.

What crap. This is a good example of Muslim spokesmen taking advantage of ignorance over Islam to spread blatant lies about it. What Australian would think their values are compatible with these Muslim standards?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

What he should have said was that some Muslim values are not totally incompatible with Australian values, while acknowledgeing that some are.

I think what he was trying to point out is that basic principles carry through even if other things differ.

I think because there is such focus upon the differences, people try to bring focus back upon the similarities in order to provide perspective.

Although it is good to acknowledge both I can understand why people swing in the other direction.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims Reply #112 - Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 1:44am rotflmao well i started a topic here re that ... NO MUSLIM INPUT
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freediver

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #113 - Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 9:20am

So Muslims don't think of the west as decadent? I just can't get my head around how they can say we practice Muslim values when it is convenient to them, but then say we are decadent and beneath them when it is convenient to say the opposite. The best he could have come up with, while being honest, is to say that there are some basic values that are almost universal, which Islam also holds. Anything more is pure spin. There is something just plain wrong about religious spokesmen acting like devious politicians.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims Reply #114 - Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 10:53am Well from what I've seen and heard here... I'm beginning to think that those "common values" are only shared with fellow Muslims.
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Yadda

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #115 - Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 10:57am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 6:10pm:

Yadda,

Quote:

Because today, many, many, Australians are still ignorant of what ISLAM represents, and are ignorant of the hatred of non-muslims, which is espoused in the Koran and Hadith.

Just curious, would you permit your own holy book to be judged by the same measuring stick? I'm sure some of those verses about being commanded by God to enter cities and kill all, including young and old, women, children and maidens, and rip unborn babies from their mother's wombs would have to qualify as quite severe hatred and inciting to violence.

abu,

Putting such a proposition is a diversion, to avert attention from the facts about ISLAMIC doctrine.

And is totally irrelevant for today.

Why?

Because the children of Israel [in those times [alone]] were commanded by God to 'clean' the promised land of those ppl who were polluting it.

This command was not given as an ongoing commission, against all mankind.
.....[as per ISLAMIC doctrine]

ISLAM is peace?

All muslims know, are taught, that there can be no peace, until all mankind are subjected to Allah's law, Sharia.

abu, you are a muslim.

You know this is factual.

WHO ARE ISLAM'S / ALLAH'S ENEMIES TODAY,
....AND FOR ALL TIME???

.....ALL NON-MUSLIMS.

EXAMPLE....

"Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.101

OPEN-ENDED

Hadith....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.0...

OPEN-ENDED

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.0...

OPEN-ENDED

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 6:10pm:

Or how about the Jewish Talmud? Where Jews are permitted to withhold wages from non-Jews, a Jew killing a non-Jew is not held responsible, and a Jew stealing from a non-Jew is not required to return the property he stole??

Yeh great idea, let us subject religious texts to hate legislation, I guarantee you that Judaeo-Christian books would be the first to go.

The Talmud?

Sounds a lot like how Sharia is applied against non-muslims today, to me.

Judaeo-Christian books [i.e. the Bible] does not identify non-Christians, non-Jews, as ppl who must be subjugated [ENSLAVED].

The Koran and Hadith do.

EXAMPLE....

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued [as slaves of Allah].
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

Google,
"we want to free all people from being slaves of men and make them slaves of Allah."
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22we+want+to+free+all+people+from+being...

We know you do [want to make all men, the slaves of Allah].
.....a muslims reason for being, stated succinctly.

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« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 12:06pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #116 - Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 11:28am

freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 9:20am:

So Muslims don't think of the west as decadent? I just can't get my head around how they can say we practice Muslim values when it is convenient to them, but then say we are decadent and beneath them when it is convenient to say the opposite. The best he could have come up with, while being honest, is to say that there are some basic values that are almost universal, which Islam also holds. Anything more is pure spin. There is something just plain wrong about religious spokesmen acting like devious politicians.

freediver,

You are correct.

And this is just more of the dualism of ISLAM.

i.e.
There is one message for non-muslim communities.

Another message for muslim communities.

ISLAMIC DUPLICITY.

#1

'DON'T FRIGHTEN THE HORSES'

".....Australians and muslims share the same values."

ABC Radio National Religion interview transcript - "The Undercover Mosque: The return"
".....Stephen Crittenden: .....your program highlights a certain kind of duplicity. When they're caught out, individuals don't miss a bit, they just say they've been taken out of context....
David Henshaw: ......Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue.....
A GROUP OF CHRISTIANS VISITING THE MOSQUE and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat them kindly and talk about 'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'.
JUST AS SOON AS THAT GROUP OF VISITORS LEAVES, THE LANGUAGE CHANGES COMPLETELY. 'CHRISTIANITY IS VILE', the preacher says.....
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2360820.htm#transcript

#2

THE MESSAGE TO THE 'BELIEVERS'
....UNBELIEF IS WORSE THAN DEATH

Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad - Speaking publicly, AND THEN PRIVATELY, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.

"......In public interviews Bakri condemned the killing of all innocent civilians. Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent: Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any kuffar."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1724541,00.html

Note well, these words in the following news report....

".....There is no such thing as an innocent kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims."

Cleric preaches that violence is part of Islam
01/05/2007
In documents seen by The Daily Telegraph, al-Muhajiroun claimed: "Terrorism is a part of Islam" and "Allah made it obligatory to prepare and to terrify the enemy of Allah".
The article advised: "The kuffar of USA and UK are without doubt our enemy.There is no such thing as an innocent kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims. Not only is it obligatory to fight them, it is haram [forbidden] to feel sorry for them."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/01/nplot901.xml

Two messages.

Each delivered to a different target audience.

#1
ISLAM IS PEACE.

#2
UNBELIEF IS UNACCEPTABLE

+++++++

TERROR

From the Hadith.....

On the use of terror against Allah's enemies,

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me:"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.10...

'spoils have been made lawful to me' = = WAR BOOTY

ISLAM is a 'Religion of Peace' ????

How can muslims assert this, with a straight face?

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.0...

ISLAM is war.
....until the end of time.

Which is coming soon.
Wink

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« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 11:39am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims Reply #117 - Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 7:18pm Quote: ....until the end of time. Which is coming soon. Never know how soon. Make sure you got your cellar stocked up
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Yadda

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #118 - Nov 5^th, 2008 at 11:53am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 7:18pm:

Quote:

....until the end of time.
Which is coming soon.

Never know how soon. Make sure you got your cellar stocked up

Those who trust in man, or trust in the strength of their own hand will fail.

Whether we live or die, we are the LORD's.

We are all in his hand, all of us.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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locutius

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #119 - Nov 5^th, 2008 at 11:55am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 11:54pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 9:27pm:

AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board says.
Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia.
Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia's destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.

What crap. This is a good example of Muslim spokesmen taking advantage of ignorance over Islam to spread blatant lies about it. What Australian would think their values are compatible with these Muslim standards?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

What he should have said was that some Muslim values are not totally incompatible with Australian values, while acknowledgeing that some are.

I think what he was trying to point out is that basic principles carry through even if other things differ.

I think because there is such focus upon the differences, people try to bring focus back upon the similarities in order to provide perspective.

Although it is good to acknowledge both I can understand why people swing in the other direction.

Accept that being different per sa isn't the problem. It is too simplistic for people to bang on about differences not being accepted and that makes the xenophobes etc ad nauseum.

There ARE differences between groups that carry different weight and some of thess differences are fundamental and not negotiable. Hence FD's attempt to itemise some of those differences. The differences between what people eat can not be viewed the same as the difference of whether people believe in democratic process or freedom of speech or freedom of art.

As war (Jihad) can be declared to further the goal of Islam, I see no reason that when that goal includes the elimination of secular democratic values that they are immune to being treated as an enemy. Openly and honestly, regarding those principles at least. It is not a conflict that needs to be violent, but could certainly be viewed as a cold war.

I have no desire to initiate or encourage the initiation of violence against Muslim's. I am perfectly happy for them to believe what they wish. But we are certainly political foes when it comes to those principles mentioned above, amongst others. It is a fight that I believe completely that humanity cannot afford to lose. Equally we can't continue to allow the capitalist hijacking of those principles. The capitalists hide behind freedom in the same way Islam hides behind tolerence and both groups manipulate those principles and get the disinterested less discerning majority to protect them.

BTW I do believe in their right to say what they believe and to promote their cause and goals. The same as it is the right for others to fight them openly and publically. To make sure that an accurate picture of their values and competing values are. The same right as far as I am concerned applies to One Nation, Greenies, Commies and Fascists. Put the ideas and beliefs out there, but if you expect not to be scrutinised, well maybe that really reflects the type of society you are promoting.

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« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2008 at 3:32pm by locutius »

I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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