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Islam and lying to non-Muslims (Read 34770 times)
Yadda
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #15 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:25pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:13pm:
Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:08pm:
p.s. apparently, the 72 virgins, have their virginity 'renewed' by Allah, after every de-flowering.
....he is the master of the universe.


No need if its a mistranslation.








I wouldn't bet YOUR 'honour' on it!

Cheesy


The clerics could come out with another translation next week,
....if it suited their purposes.

Like most organised religions [Christian ones included], [it seems] clerics will often 'cut their cloth' [doctrine], to meet their needs.


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« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:56pm by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #16 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 6:00pm
 

Quote:
I was listening to a podcast of an Israeli reporter (a Jew - can't remember his name) who regularly interviews Jihadists in the Gaza strip (having secured their trust) who, only when pushed on the subject, will reluctantly admit that the verse is a mistranslation (although apparently they still continue the myth among young Jihadists).


Well if it comes from a Jew undercover in Gaza, I'd believe it  Grin
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #17 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 6:05pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 6:00pm:
Quote:
I was listening to a podcast of an Israeli reporter (a Jew - can't remember his name) who regularly interviews Jihadists in the Gaza strip (having secured their trust) who, only when pushed on the subject, will reluctantly admit that the verse is a mistranslation (although apparently they still continue the myth among young Jihadists).


Well if it comes from a Jew undercover in Gaza, I'd believe it  Grin

Is it a mistranslation?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #18 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 6:57pm
 

No.

Hour al-ayin is quite well known to refer to beautiful virgins of paradise. Also if you read the verses it's mentioned in, it's quite obvious what the term means. They're also mentioned by many other names and epithets as well, like "Azwaajun Mutahara" meaning "pure spouses". There's absolutely no ambiguity about it whatsoever, the Jew is duping you.

Like with most attempts to attack Islam, it's about 0.01% fact and about 99.99% bovine faeces.
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #19 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 7:04pm
 
Equine is the more common term. But don't worry, I still understood what you meant.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #20 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 7:30pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 6:57pm:
No.

Hour al-ayin is quite well known to refer to beautiful virgins of paradise. Also if you read the verses it's mentioned in, it's quite obvious what the term means. They're also mentioned by many other names and epithets as well, like "Azwaajun Mutahara" meaning "pure spouses". There's absolutely no ambiguity about it whatsoever, the Jew is duping you.

Like with most attempts to attack Islam, it's about 0.01% fact and about 99.99% bovine faeces.

I found a transcript of the interview with Rachel Kohn from "The Spirit of Things" and Aaron Klein. Klein claims it is not mentioned in the Koran but comes from a later oral tradition.

Quote:
Rachael Kohn:  Aaron, in all these interviews, particularly as you started pretty young, at the age of 18 or 19, were you scared? Were you ever really scared for your life?

Aaron Klein: Absolutely...  One example in particular was when I went in to meet the senior leadership of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terror group, the most active Palestinian terror group in the West Bank with literally the chief of the Brigade's No.2, No.3. No.4, it was the senior leadership, they were all with their weapons, had machine guns, and I went with Rusty Humphreys who's an American radio host. We went in together and during the interview, Rusty, this American radio host, kept asking the terrorist to show us where in the Qur'an it says anything about 72 virgins, about suicide bombers who go up to Allah's paradise and get an eternity with 72 dark-eyed virgins, because actually I don't know if you know this, but it's not in the Qur'an, the Qur'an doesn't say anything about 72 virgins and yet the terrorists constantly tell the Palestinian teenagers who blow themselves up that they're going to get the 72 virgins, and so Rusty knew it wasn't in the Qur'an and he kept asking the terrorists who said earlier that martyrs get 72 virgins, he kept asking them to show us where in the Qur'an it was located. And I was sitting across the room from Rusty and so I couldn't really nudge him, but the terrorists were getting really agitated and he didn't realise that, they actually kept shooting these angry glances at me, like Shut this guy up, tell him to stop asking. And he kept petitioning, 'So did you find the 72 virgins yet, did anybody finds the 72 virgins?' he actually had them take out a Qur'an and flip through the Qur'an and look for the 72 virgins, and they kept pointing to different verses that may indicate a virgin or two, but they couldn't find the 72 virgins, and I didn't think we'd get out alive from that interview. Ultimately though, the terrorists conceded on record, on audio, that there are no 72 virgins, it's not in the Qur'an. Actually it comes later from the oral tradition


http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2008/2270131.htm#transcript
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« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2008 at 8:07pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #21 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 7:53pm
 
Perhaps oral tradition means Hadith, though if it isn't in the Koran then the hadith is questionable. Maybe Abu can point out the Koran passage.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #22 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 7:57pm
 

You originally said mistranslation, you didn't say the number 72.

Yes the number 72 is not mentioned specifically in the Qur'an, it's in the hadith.

Since mozzaok once tried to claim the word translated as virgins actually means 'white raisins' because that's what it means in Aramaic... I assumed you were trying the same pathetic argument.

It's funny how muslims are such brutal evil murdering terrorists, yet this Jew and American apprently came and disputed Islamic doctrine with them, and they didn't do anything...  Sounds a little far fetched to me  Grin

Also, I think most Muslims know that 72 is not mentioned in the Qur'an, so it sounds more like a lack of comunication than this Yank actually setting them straight on what Islam teaches. More than likely they sat like scared little schoolkids throughout the whole interview, then concocted the story in the bus on the way home.

And Palestinians are actually one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to Islam. They have a campus of the famous al-Azhar university in Gaza, and they spend most of their money on education, because they can't really build houses and stuff.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #23 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 8:04pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
You originally said mistranslation, you didn't say the number 72.

Yes, apologies for that. From memory I thought he was referring to a mistranslation.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #24 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 8:12pm
 

Quote:
though if it isn't in the Koran then the hadith is questionable.


This is just not true at all.

Many of the foundation beliefs and practises of Islam come from Hadith. Like for instance praying 5 times a day.
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #25 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 9:48pm
 
It's funny how muslims are such brutal evil murdering terrorists, yet this Jew and American apprently came and disputed Islamic doctrine with them, and they didn't do anything...  Sounds a little far fetched to me

It's amazing that you think one example of getting away with it alive means anything in that context.

Also, I think most Muslims know that 72 is not mentioned in the Qur'an

So what does the Koran actually say?

Many of the foundation beliefs and practises of Islam come from Hadith.

How does that work? That is, what is the justification for it? I thought the hadiths were only supposed to clarify the Koran, not add new bits. After all, aren;t they the work of regular people, not Muhammed?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #26 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 9:56pm
 

Quote:
So what does the Koran actually say?


It mentions pure mates, I don't recall any specific numbers.

Quote:
How does that work? That is, what is the justification for it? I thought the hadiths were only supposed to clarify the Koran, not add new bits.


Nope, depending on the grade of the hadith, it can be used to establish beliefs and practises.

Quote:
After all, aren;t they the work of regular people, not Muhammed?


Nope, this is a common misconception though.

The Qur'an is the word of God, most think it's the words of Muhammad (pbuh).

The Hadith is the speech of Muhammad (pbuh).
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #27 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 9:57pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
Also, I think most Muslims know that 72 is not mentioned in the Qur'an, so it sounds more like a lack of comunication than this Yank actually setting them straight on what Islam teaches.

I didn't get the impression Rusty Humphreys was setting them straight as much as the interviewees were being evasive i.e. knowing full well that the 72 virgins reference was not in the Koran. They (the interviewees) were content to let Hunphreys believe it was a direct quote from the Koran and only set the record straight when they were pressed on the issue.
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #28 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 10:03pm
 

Well it could also be that like me, they assumed he meant the concept of the maidens of paradise, rather than the actual number. People quite often frame questions in a certain manner, not realising they've put the emphasis on the wrong point. So they might have said something along the lines of "The promised virgins are not mentioned in the Qur'an".
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #29 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 10:22pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 10:03pm:
Well it could also be that like me, they assumed he meant the concept of the maidens of paradise, rather than the actual number. People quite often frame questions in a certain manner, not realising they've put the emphasis on the wrong point. So they might have said something along the lines of "The promised virgins are not mentioned in the Qur'an".

Possibly, although that's not what Aaron Klein says Humphreys asked. Klein claims Humphreys specifically inquired about the reference to '72 dark-eyed virgins'. He claims the conversation is recorded and if so no doubt used the audio to inform his memory. However, there's not much further we can go with this without hearing the audio.

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