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Islam and lying to non-Muslims (Read 34782 times)
Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #75 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:06pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31st, 2008 at 2:32pm:
Quote:
One of the first requirements is that there must be at least 4 eye witnesses to the actual act.


yes, which in a male dominated society is almost impossible.

where would a female get 4 male eyewitnesses to testify she was raped ??

how disgustingly biased


I believe that is only for the death penalty to apply. but other punishments can be enacted

but I agree- why on earth must they be male?
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #76 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:10pm
 

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.



Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.

In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:



If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503548970&pagename=IslamOnl...
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #77 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:19pm
 
To insist that the raped victim must provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public.

This is based on what the Prophet Muhammad (P) had once said:

“The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

Further, the Prophet (P) was reported to have said that:

“Allah (T) has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness and what they are coerced into doing.”3

An event concerning rape had in fact led towards the Prophet Muhammad (P) punishing a rapist without demanding or even hinting for four witnesses:

“Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr: “When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (P) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered [raped] her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That [man] did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (P).

When he [the Prophet] was about to pass sentence, the man who [actually] had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He [the Prophet] said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words [Abu Dawud said: "meaning the man who was seized"], and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: “Stone him to death.“4

It should also be noted that it was related by Ibn Abi Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahab that a woman accused with adultery was taken to Caliph `Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. `Umar released the woman.5

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2006/does-islam-require-four-witnesses-f...
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #78 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:25pm
 
gaybriel - whatever does that mean ??

Quote:
"But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)"
an-Nur (The Light) 24:33


dont force them into being prostitutes, but if you do, allah will forgive you ??



i want references to the koran or hadith for anything .



Quote:
Until now rape cases were dealt with in Sharia courts. Victims had to have four male witnesses to the crime - if not they faced prosecution for adultery.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6148590.stm

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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #79 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:28pm
 
4 witnesses to the act of adultery. Didn't say anything about rape.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #80 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:32pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:25pm:
gaybriel - whatever does that mean ??

Quote:
"But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)"
an-Nur (The Light) 24:33


dont force them into being prostitutes, but if you do, allah will forgive you ??



i want references to the koran or hadith for anything .




no it means that allah will forgive women who work as prostitutes by way of compulsion
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #81 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:35pm
 

Abu - post the references in sharia law, it seems to change, to say the least.


Due to your intolerance and biased view, I cant believe you.


gaybriel - what does this mean Quote:
But if anyone compels them

if the owner comples them, he is ok ??
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Yadda
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #82 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:37pm
 
Gaybriel,

Please Gaybriel, i beg you, please do not be apologists for these wicked, wicked, ppl.




In reply to the information in your posts #75, #76, #77,

Quote:
".....A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her. "


Please DO NOT BELIEVE WORDS of propagandists, look at what happens in the REAL WORLD....

JUST ONE EXAMPLE [of Sharia 'justice'].....

Quote:
November 15, 2007
Saudi [Arabia] punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
She made her crime all the more heinous by "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media."
Just stay quiet, go along, and things will go better for you, capisce?
....The 19-year-old woman......was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," the Arab News reported.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018811.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stm
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071115145104.rykb7bub&show_article=1


+++++++++


December 02, 2007
"MODERN" DUBAI SAYS MALE VICTIMS OF MALE RAPE ARE HOMOSEXUALS
....."They immediately reported the crime, going in person to the local police station. But Alex says the police doctor who examined him that night seemed intent on proving there was no rape, just a consensual sexual act between three men and a 15 year-old gay boy. "
.....16-year-old French-Swiss Alexandre Robert and his mother Veronique were the perfect example of Dubai's cosmopolitan makeup. Alex was living in Dubai when he says he was gang raped at knifepoint, beginning an ordeal that has shed light on how Dubai's justice system treats victims of violent sex crimes.
http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/12/modern-dubai-sa.html

Maid abuse in the UAE
October 13, 2004
http://chanadbahraini.blogspot.com/2004/10/maid-abuse-in-uae.html

Dubai: Migrant Workers at Risk
.....Despite their value to both their home countries and the societies in which they work, many migrant workers suffer from discrimination, exploitation and abuse. Migrants, including large numbers of women employed as domestic servants, face intimidation and violence, including sexual assault, at the hands of employers, supervisors, sponsors and police and security forces. Children are especially vulnerable to labor and sexual exploitation and denial of basic rights.
"Thousands of children are trafficked to the United Arab Emirates for use as beggars and camel jockeys," Mungoven said. "The World Bank can't claim to fight child labor in poor countries and then turn a blind eye when it crosses borders."
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/09/19/uae6388.htm




Google,
Saudi Arabia maid abuse
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Saudi+Arabia+maid+abuse&btnG=Google+Sear...





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« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:43pm by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #83 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:38pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:35pm:
Abu - post the references in sharia law, it seems to change, to say the least.


Due to your intolerance and biased view, I cant believe you.


gaybriel - what does this mean Quote:
But if anyone compels them

if the owner comples them, he is ok ??


nooooo

I highly doubt it but I will find evidence for this
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #84 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:40pm
 
Yadda wrote on Oct 31st, 2008 at 3:37pm:
Gaybriel,

Please Gaybriel, i beg you, please do not be apologists for these wicked, wicked, ppl.




In reply to the information in your posts #75, #76, #77,

Quote:
".....A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her. "


Please DO NOT BELIEVE WORDS of propagandists, look at what happens in the REAL WORLD....

JUST ONE EXAMPLE [of Sharia 'justice'].....

Quote:
November 15, 2007
Saudi [Arabia] punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
She made her crime all the more heinous by "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media."
Just stay quiet, go along, and things will go better for you, capisce?
....The 19-year-old woman......was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," the Arab News reported.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018811.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stm
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071115145104.rykb7bub&show_article=1






I am not being an apologist- I am providing links as to what is suppose to happen with reference to rape victims and what the requirements are.

I agree this does not play out in real life. In fact it is my belief that there is not one country that practises shariah correctly
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #85 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 4:02pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31st, 2008 at 12:17pm:
warning warnign warning - diversionary tactics used.

heresy is not in the NT.



it's not diversion- it's perspective
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #86 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 8:01pm
 
gaybriel - it is not perspective, it is diversion.

The question was not answered, this is an islam forum.


diversion, abuse, deletion, arrogance, threats.
Thanks for the education on islam, I get the picture for dhimmis.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #87 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 10:01pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31st, 2008 at 8:01pm:
gaybriel - it is not perspective, it is diversion.

The question was not answered, this is an islam forum.


diversion, abuse, deletion, arrogance, threats.
Thanks for the education on islam, I get the picture for dhimmis.


I am requesting that you stop bringing up old grievances. you have created plenty of threads in which to do this.

what is the specific question you wish to be answered?
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #88 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 10:03pm
 
Does Islam permit the buying and selling of Concubines?
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #89 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 10:45pm
 

Can an infidel testify against a muslim in court with complete confidance of GENUINE justice ?
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