Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 10:45pm:

Yes, provided it is a court in a liberal democracy.

Quote:


They probably got sick of wasting their time chattering with mindless parrots.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:58pm:



too tired to respond to the loaded first question with its various assumptions

as for the second, I know some things about islam so if I can contribute I will, or I will try to find out. also in case you hadn't noticed I'm now a mod here so....why not

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 3:40pm:







Gaybriel,

Whether you recognise it or not,
.....i say that you are acting as an apologist, and as such, you are an 'enabler', for those who seek to avoid responsibility for these type of actions.

In your comment on Sharia abuse, you have said....

Quote:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225416753/30#30

This type of 'apology', is actually promoting a cop out [i.e. an avoidance of responsibility].

And i am sorry, but i say that those who 'promote' and facilitate such 'cop outs' *are* acting as apologists for the actual 'perps'.

The ppl who commit these offences, against socially weaker ppl, are using a [self-] perceived [social] advantage [bestowed upon themselves by ISLAM, being muslims] to shield themselves, and their own complicit 'brothers', from any consequences for their actions.

Many women, and non-muslims, who are in socially weaker position, are being victimised within Sharia jurisdictions, by ppl [by criminals!] who claim the protection of their [own] status, within ISLAM.

And yet, after the fact, ppl such as yourself, will come along and say,
"These ppl [perpetrators] are not real muslims.",
OR,
"These ppl [perpetrators] are not practiciing Sharia correctly."

Well really Gaybriel,
...if these types of statements [which you are making], are not a form of semantic 'deflection' [and designed to deflect responsibility, away from the very ppl who do bare responsibility], then what is!

And if real muslims believe that such miscreants are really, really, misrepresenting a virtuous ISLAM [as some ppl, like yourself, may wish to claim].
.....I have to ask,
.....why are there no muslim clerics all over the world 'up in arms', and declaring death fatwas against such ppl, who in these actions, are insulting ISLAM, and Allah, and the prophet, and bringing virtuous ISLAM into disrepute????

Hmmmm?

But just let one dhimmi [in a Sharia jurisdiction] call a teddy bear Muhammad, and the muslim world is in uproar, and baying for blood......

28 November 2007
Teacher charged over teddy row
A British teacher has been charged in Sudan with insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs.
The Foreign Office has confirmed that charges have been laid against Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool.
........Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam,".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7117430.stm

2 December 2007
Sudanese views differ in teddy row
......Clearly the Sudanese Government is coming under huge pressure internally about this case.
Some now want the government to send Mrs Gibbons back to court. They believe the 15-day sentence for insulting religion was too lenient and they would like her to be re-tried.
......Some chanted threats against the 54-year-old primary school teacher from Liverpool.
A group of men shouted: "She must be killed by the sword."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7123517.stm




++++++++


Gaybriel, TO ME, YOU CAN EASILY REDEEM YOUR MORAL POSITION [in my eyes], BY ANSWERING THIS ONE QUESTION,
.....AND SOLVING A MYSTERY.....

Please tell us all where, or who, are the 'rightly guided' muslims?
'Where in the world', are all of those muslims, who do conduct Sharia correctly?

Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Jordan???


Because it seems very obvious [to many who view ISLAM critically], that these virtuous, and rightly guided muslims, are keeping a very, very, low social profile.

In fact these real muslims appear to be totally invisible.

Are real muslims, your 'imaginary friends' perhaps?

Who are they exactly?




For as the Koran correctly states [/sarc off]....

"Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.082

and,

"Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/035.qmt.html#035.008

All of you [thinking of becoming] wicked ppl, be warned!

Allah is watching you.


and,

"And he whose sight is dim to the remembrance of the Beneficent, We assign unto him a devil who becometh his comrade;
And lo! they surely turn them from the way of Allah, and yet they deem that they are rightly guided;"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/043.qmt.html#043.036
v. 36, 37

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 12:12pm:





freediver,

Duh!

Isn't the answer obvious???

Those conservative muslim clerics in Pakistan are all 'misunderstanders' of [the real] ISLAM.

They are clearly not being 'rightly guided' by Allah.

And it is obviously going to be, the hot place for them!
/sarc off



i.e.
As the Koran states....

"Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.082

Only the rightly guided, are for Allah's paradise.
....all the ppl he chooses to mislead, are going to hell.


"......Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.088





p.s.

FD

As i mentioned, in my previous post in this thread, i am still looking for the 'rightly guided' muslims.

[not that Christian clerics are any better than muslim ones.
....in my view, God is God, and all organised religion is a crock.]

yadda and merou - I invite you to start a thread on the spiritual forum about that.

It'ld certainly have my full support !!!

Yadda wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:35am:


and you're entitled to that opinion. however, I do not wish for those who have done something wrong to avoid responsibility. what I am trying to avoid is placing responsibility on the shoulders of those not responsible but who are deemed it via association

Quote:


why is it an apology? does it mean that I support how these countries practice? am I apologising for their behaviour? hardly. I'm merely pointing out that it is incorrect practice of shariah. does that mean I don't have problems with shariah? no it doesn't.

you seem to read a lot into me just pointing out certain facts.

Quote:


my comments do not excuse those who commit crimes or abuses- in fact I see them as condemning them further (in this case)

as I have said in another thread, many people seem to think that understanding an issue and discussing that understanding somehow indicates an implicit support - this is not the case

Quote:


that doesn't make sense - can you explain it further?

from what I can see you are saying that people commit offences and use a superior position in order to shiled themselves and others- do you mean their position in govt or the legal system?

or by self perception do you mean that they perceive themselves as superior because they're muslim and that because they're muslim they believe they are above condemnation for certain actions?

Quote:


I agree

Quote:


I cannot say if they're real muslims, but they are following procedures and practises that are not true to islamic doctrine

Quote:


they're a statement of fact which do not attempt to deflect responsibility away from those who commit crimes or abuses.

Quote:


this is a very good question. I wonder what kind of criticism there has been on the practises of shariah in certain countries.

Quote:


many rightly guided muslims would live in these countries yes. many reside in other countries. I am unsure of how you wish me to answer this. what do you want- names?

I think you should consider the possibility that muslims who oppose extremism do not make the newspapers and do not have as great a voice as those who come out being crazy. this is not a conspiracy theory- it's just a fact. the same as for everything. sensationalism sells.

you could see it in camden- the locals were painted as redneck extremists, the moderate voices were toned down.

merou wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 1:13pm:


I agree- religions are a human construct and thus deeply flawed. from the beginning they have been about power struggles- the word of the doctrine itself gets lost and manipulated. one need only look at sectarianism in religion to see that

I've always thought it was a shame when people start to worship their religion instead of worshipping god