There appears to be some kind of trend for Muslims in position of authority to issue misleading press releases etc. They tend to convey messages that are likely to be misinterpretted by most westerners who take them at face value, especially if they are ignorant of Islam. These 'lies of omission' seem to be based on using using terms for their Islamic meaning when the intended audience will attach the common western meaning. It boils down to saying 'Muslims wouldn't dare to anything wrong or illegal', with the hidden meaning being that they would do things that most westerners consider wrong or illegal, but are legal under Islam, or under the interpretation of Islam used by whoever is making the statement.

I think that Islamic doctrine actually encourages the deception of non-Muslims as a core strategy.

Some examples:

Saying that killing innocent civilians is wrong - but only Muslims are innocent.

In response to a death penalty fatwa for something that would normally be protected by free spoeech, saying you do not support vigilantism - but the proper enforcement of the death penalty is not vigilantism.

Saying that Islam's goal is peace - but meaning that peace is when the whole world is subjected to Islamic law, and that non-Muslim areas are considered to be places of war until this 'peace' is achieved.

Saying you do not support pedophilia - but supporting the marriage of young girls at any age, supporting sex with girls once they hit puberty, and allowing old men to take home pre-pubescent child brides on the 'expectation' that they will do the right thing with them.

Saying that Islam is about brotherhood - but only with other Muslims.

Saying that Islam treats non-Muslims well - yet it actively discriminates against Christians and Jews so that they are forced into humiliation, so that even the most lowly Muslim will feel materially superior to them and thus not be 'tempted'. Other religions and athiests are treated even worse.

Giving examples of the situations where certain behaviours are acceptable and creating the impression that the list is exhaustive - when it isn't. For example saying that Muslims may only have for wives and that all forms of sex outside of marriage are forbidden and punished by death by stoning or whipping, but failing to mention concubinage. Or saying that certain things are only acceptable in times of war, but failuing to mention that Islam is at war until it conquers the world. Or saying that slaves can only be taken in war, but failing to mention slavery as a punishment for Dhimmis who do not behave in the appropriately humiliating way.

Where such a deception is not possible, the next best alternative appears to be changing the subject and pointing out situations where Muslims are not treated well, while ignoring the issue of whether Islamic doctrine enourages mistreatment.

Lestat don't waste your time with losers on stuff like this. No matter what they say, and no matter what you reply, they can always weasel their way out of it and claim you're using taqiyyah and lying to them. So don't beat your head against the brickwall even conversing with them on such garbage.

It's called a mirage argument. Everytime you goto answer it, it disappears, into claims you're lying to them cos they're non-muslims. Leave them to their mirage.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 9:17pm:


lol..you talking about admirable. I've seen toe rags that are more admirable then you.

Jordon....go back and crawl that rock you call your home....I'm getting sick of your hypocricy.

And stop squealing like a b(tch...your whining is making me sick..not to mention your stench.

I expanded on this topic and created an article in the wiki about it:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims

I am yet to put in any links back to this forum, but I hope to have several examples of each type of deception in action. Feel free to add any yourself (but create an account for yourself if you don't want your IP address made public). The wiki is really easy to edit. To add a link, just type in something like:

Code:

[http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225178712/0#8] 

In the movie "Body Of Lies", when the CIA guy is talking to the terrorist leader, he accuses him of killing other muslims, and goes on to say how I suppose you do not consider that killing, for any muslim that dies in the cause of allah is not really dead.

I would like to know what koranic verse that relates to, because it really seems to give them open slather to kill anyone, at any time, for any reason, with religiously sanctioned impunity.

What makes me wonder about the honesty of many Islamic "instructors" is the continuing of the myth of 72 virgins (making God seem like a pimp in a celestial slut house). I'm told it derives from a mistranslation which remains largely uncorrected. I was listening to a podcast of an Israeli reporter (a Jew - can't remember his name) who regularly interviews Jihadists in the Gaza strip (having secured their trust) who, only when pushed on the subject, will reluctantly admit that the verse is a mistranslation (although apparently they still continue the myth among young Jihadists).

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 2:08pm:


No need if its a mistranslation.

Quote:


Well if it comes from a Jew undercover in Gaza, I'd believe it 

No.

Hour al-ayin is quite well known to refer to beautiful virgins of paradise. Also if you read the verses it's mentioned in, it's quite obvious what the term means. They're also mentioned by many other names and epithets as well, like "Azwaajun Mutahara" meaning "pure spouses". There's absolutely no ambiguity about it whatsoever, the Jew is duping you.

Like with most attempts to attack Islam, it's about 0.01% fact and about 99.99% bovine faeces.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 6:57pm:

I found a transcript of the interview with Rachel Kohn from "The Spirit of Things" and Aaron Klein. Klein claims it is not mentioned in the Koran but comes from a later oral tradition.

Quote:


http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2008/2270131.htm#transcript

You originally said mistranslation, you didn't say the number 72.

Yes the number 72 is not mentioned specifically in the Qur'an, it's in the hadith.

Since mozzaok once tried to claim the word translated as virgins actually means 'white raisins' because that's what it means in Aramaic... I assumed you were trying the same pathetic argument.

It's funny how muslims are such brutal evil murdering terrorists, yet this Jew and American apprently came and disputed Islamic doctrine with them, and they didn't do anything...  Sounds a little far fetched to me 

Also, I think most Muslims know that 72 is not mentioned in the Qur'an, so it sounds more like a lack of comunication than this Yank actually setting them straight on what Islam teaches. More than likely they sat like scared little schoolkids throughout the whole interview, then concocted the story in the bus on the way home.

And Palestinians are actually one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to Islam. They have a campus of the famous al-Azhar university in Gaza, and they spend most of their money on education, because they can't really build houses and stuff.

Quote:


This is just not true at all.

Many of the foundation beliefs and practises of Islam come from Hadith. Like for instance praying 5 times a day.

Quote:


It mentions pure mates, I don't recall any specific numbers.

Quote:


Nope, depending on the grade of the hadith, it can be used to establish beliefs and practises.

Quote:


Nope, this is a common misconception though.

The Qur'an is the word of God, most think it's the words of Muhammad (pbuh).

The Hadith is the speech of Muhammad (pbuh).

Well it could also be that like me, they assumed he meant the concept of the maidens of paradise, rather than the actual number. People quite often frame questions in a certain manner, not realising they've put the emphasis on the wrong point. So they might have said something along the lines of "The promised virgins are not mentioned in the Qur'an".

Must be my lucky night. I found the alleged audio on youtube

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=cEB2wEBJpo4

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 11:16pm:

No they don't look like old testament prophets that's for sure (quite disappointing really).

Mind you, if the suicide bomber was keen on raisins, and not girls, then it might make things worse.

There was a big thing that I really respected in christianity, that Jesus stood up for Mary Magdalene, a prostitute, and told the others to back off, and not judge her, now that is a religious message worth teaching, has Islam got anything good like that to teach??

You think my disdain for Islam, is based on bigotry, and in a way you would be correct, but it is my hatred of bigotry, which I see Islam as promoting, which spurs my disdain for what I have learned of Islam.

I can think of nothing new, or good, that Islam brought to the moral, or ethical table, when I asked you for inspiring quotes you gave me dogmatic rules, so instead of blaming others for not recognising Islam's worth, do a better job of showing us.

So far you have given us nothing.

F/D - but mohammad was illiterate.
So he did not write it down.

At best, it is 3th hand.

Virgins in Allah's paradise '....Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched', are the 'reward' for the muslims 'brothers' to 'enjoy'.



It is all said implicitly, if not explicitly.



Quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/jan/12/books.guardianreview5


In the Koran....

"(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.015


"In Gardens of Bliss:.....Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),.....And with fruits, any that they may select: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-....A Reward for the deeds of their past (life)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html#056.012
v. 12-40


"In them will be fair (Companions), good, beautiful;- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?- Companions restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions;- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?- Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/055.qmt.html#055.070
v. 70-75



And these things are all intended as inducements.

Dictionary,
inducement = = a thing that persuades or leads someone to do something. = = a bribe.

So Allah's Paradise is a 'payoff'.

So on earth muslims are not encouraged by Allah, to reveal their true nature, muslims are not encouraged [through their experience of making 'mistakes'] to try to improve their goodness, and are not encouraged to learn from the consequences their own choices, to avoid evil.

No.

The message is, be slaves....

"Fight for Allah. Die for Allah. And Allah's Paradise will be your reward."


HIS DUPES.....

"Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.120

+++++++

Google,
"72 virgins" islam martyrdom
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%2272+virgins%22+islam+martyrdom&btnG=Go...


Muhammad's Own Words
Martyrs/Mercenaries
"......Masud was one of those who found martyrdom at Khaybar. Muhammad said, 'He has with him now his two dark-eyed virgins. When a martyr is slain, his two virgins pet him, wiping the dust from his face. They say, "May Allah throw dust on the face of the man who did this to you, and slay him who slew you!"'"
http://craigwinn.com/Islamic_Quotes_Martyrs.Islam



Koran....

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.021


Hadith....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.0...


"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.0...




Devout muslims, Jihadists, are Satan's dupes.
....and they will have their reward!

mozzaok wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 8:54am:






mozzaok,

You may not agree with my assessment of ISLAM, and Christianity [below].

But here it is....



ISLAM's 'message' is,
"Be Allah's slave. Be obedient, and submissive, kill the unbelievers [who resist Allah's way]. Do all of this, and your reward will be Allah's Paradise."



Christianity's 'message' is, [and actually, the OT message to the children of Israel],
"Live your life on earth. Do the best you can. You will make mistakes. In exercising choices [in the earth, i.e. in 'THE GARDEN OF EDEN'], you will LEARN about Good and Evil - and through your experiences, you will commit many sins, against God's laws. But God's forgiveness is available, if you come to recognise sin, for what it is. And those who sincerely repent, and recognise their mistaken paths, will be forgiven. You are all God's children - if you choose to be [not slaves]."




+++++



Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12  I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.


Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Lamentations 3:31
For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32  But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33  For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
34  To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

I know we are getting a little off thread, but folllowing the course of the dialogue I have to ask.

So the reward for a pious Muslim life is similar to an American college graduation party with chicks and booze. The very type of thing that is routinely denegrated against here in the mortal realm.

It also begs the question, what do the Muslim woman get? Do they get virgins as well. Hopefully Allah will grant the male virgins perfect experience as most woman find a man's first time to be short, messy and unfullfilling.

Surely all this is a s bizarre as anything found in Waco, or the orange people or the extra-terrestrial worshippers. I have to say though that Nelix's girlfriend KES is fully hot!

Quote:



It begs the questions, why did she not give the dog some of the water she drank ?
Assuiming she used a bucket or the like?
Also, what did allah forgive her for ?? What was her crime?

Why are you so rude and arrogant to mozzaok ?
Why do you not give koran quotes and references to give substance to your allegations ??

Really I don't know why I bother...

and you wonder why everyone is seeing you as an apologist...  oh except Mozz and the Mussies.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 10:52am:


wow - good call man. no really. I'm totally genuine right now.

even if in some bizarre world this were right is still doesn't mean anything- the law is still there is it not?

Quote:


where do you get that from- is it in the quran? genuine question

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:03am:


yes it is illegal here

not actively enforced probably because half the police squad was down at the brothel anyway

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=658157

this doesn't mean it's not illegal- it just means the police force is corrupt

yes there is discussion of welfare for sex workers- as there should be. there is also discussion about whether it should be legalised in order to increase safety for sex workers. this is however a reflection of the secular nature of Australian society, not its christian origins. The two seem to intermix and be drawn upon at different times. We view ourselves as both a secular and christian country- inevitably this causes inconsistencies.

but we're not discussing society are we - we're discussing the implementation of law as informed by christian beliefs- that is the imprisonment of prostitutes.

am I saying this is comparable to stoning people to death? obviously not.

do I support the death penalty for prostitution? absolutely not.

I am however pointing out that religious doctrine does not always reflect in every day life and action- even when it purports to.

if it's true that islam requires the stoning to death of prostitutes- well I think that's messed up

Abu - Quote:


maybe because you love us 
Or it is your jihad to be here ?
Or you find this MUCH more mentally stimulating than the mosque?

Anywya - it would not be the same without you

freediver,

Quote:


I've pointed this out to you on more than one occasion, Jewish law (Halacha) also has the same. Or how about Hindu law, where a widow must be burnt alive on her husband's funeral pyre when he dies? Your idea that Islam is the only religion which has laws (involving capital punishment) is just ridiculous, most religions do!

Christianity all throughout it's history prescribed capital punishment for apostates/heretics, just because they changed it over the last few centuries, doesn't mean it didn't always exist, it did!

warning warnign warning - diversionary tactics used.

heresy is not in the NT.

I've pointed this out to you on more than one occasion, Jewish law (Halacha) also has the same. Or how about Hindu law, where a widow must be burnt alive on her husband's funeral pyre when he dies? Your idea that Islam is the only religion which has laws (involving capital punishment) is just ridiculous, most religions do!

This is what I actually said Abu:

It doubles as a political and legal system. With other religions, specific guidance on a punishment for a crime is the exception, rather than the norm.

Quote:


Finally some sense comes out of mozzas mouth, if only to just condemn another religion.

freediver,

Quote:


Yes, and as does Jewish Halacha law. Please go and do some study, instead of just conveniently throwing Islam around. Your initial statement is just farsical and mimics a comical post made recently by sprint, in which he claimed all religions are benign spiritual teachings, except Islam...

Is Jewish Halacha law the same thing as Judaism?

one of the major things that concerns me about the death penalty is human error.

many people have been killed 'legally' and then later been exonerated, or have been sitting on death row and have been found innocent.

what are the requirements of islamic law to prevent such injustices occurring?

Thanks Abu, but if I want to find out about Judaism, I think I'll ask a Jew. I have heard from other sources also that Islam and Judaism are fairly close, compared to say, Christianity. Yet Jews seem to adopt the same basic values, like personal freedom, democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc. If anything they seem more progressive than most westerners, though that may be a relfection of modern history. At the very least, I don't see them blowing up each other's synagogues, I don't see them sending suicide bombers in to kill elected officials. I don't see them blaming the west for all their problems. Judaism does not seem a threat to civilised society.

Quote:


yes, which in a male dominated society is almost impossible.

where would a female get 4 male eyewitnesses to testify she was raped ??

how disgustingly biased

Yeah sorry about that. It was pretty silly of me. Odd that he is so much more forthcoming with answers about Judaism.

If he is so forgiving and merciful, why does he have his followers stone them to death?

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.



Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.

In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:



If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503548970&pagename=IslamOnl...

gaybriel - whatever does that mean ??

Quote:


dont force them into being prostitutes, but if you do, allah will forgive you ??



i want references to the koran or hadith for anything .



Quote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6148590.stm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 3:25pm:


no it means that allah will forgive women who work as prostitutes by way of compulsion

Gaybriel,

Please Gaybriel, i beg you, please do not be apologists for these wicked, wicked, ppl.




In reply to the information in your posts #75, #76, #77,

Quote:


Please DO NOT BELIEVE WORDS of propagandists, look at what happens in the REAL WORLD....

JUST ONE EXAMPLE [of Sharia 'justice'].....

Quote:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018811.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stm
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071115145104.rykb7bub&show_article=1


+++++++++


December 02, 2007
"MODERN" DUBAI SAYS MALE VICTIMS OF MALE RAPE ARE HOMOSEXUALS
....."They immediately reported the crime, going in person to the local police station. But Alex says the police doctor who examined him that night seemed intent on proving there was no rape, just a consensual sexual act between three men and a 15 year-old gay boy. "
.....16-year-old French-Swiss Alexandre Robert and his mother Veronique were the perfect example of Dubai's cosmopolitan makeup. Alex was living in Dubai when he says he was gang raped at knifepoint, beginning an ordeal that has shed light on how Dubai's justice system treats victims of violent sex crimes.
http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/12/modern-dubai-sa.html

Maid abuse in the UAE
October 13, 2004
http://chanadbahraini.blogspot.com/2004/10/maid-abuse-in-uae.html

Dubai: Migrant Workers at Risk
.....Despite their value to both their home countries and the societies in which they work, many migrant workers suffer from discrimination, exploitation and abuse. Migrants, including large numbers of women employed as domestic servants, face intimidation and violence, including sexual assault, at the hands of employers, supervisors, sponsors and police and security forces. Children are especially vulnerable to labor and sexual exploitation and denial of basic rights.
"Thousands of children are trafficked to the United Arab Emirates for use as beggars and camel jockeys," Mungoven said. "The World Bank can't claim to fight child labor in poor countries and then turn a blind eye when it crosses borders."
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/09/19/uae6388.htm




Google,
Saudi Arabia maid abuse
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Saudi+Arabia+maid+abuse&btnG=Google+Sear...

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 3:37pm:


I am not being an apologist- I am providing links as to what is suppose to happen with reference to rape victims and what the requirements are.

I agree this does not play out in real life. In fact it is my belief that there is not one country that practises shariah correctly

gaybriel - it is not perspective, it is diversion.

The question was not answered, this is an islam forum.


diversion, abuse, deletion, arrogance, threats.
Thanks for the education on islam, I get the picture for dhimmis.

Does Islam permit the buying and selling of Concubines?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 10:45pm:

Yes, provided it is a court in a liberal democracy.

Quote:


They probably got sick of wasting their time chattering with mindless parrots.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:58pm:



too tired to respond to the loaded first question with its various assumptions

as for the second, I know some things about islam so if I can contribute I will, or I will try to find out. also in case you hadn't noticed I'm now a mod here so....why not

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 3:40pm:







Gaybriel,

Whether you recognise it or not,
.....i say that you are acting as an apologist, and as such, you are an 'enabler', for those who seek to avoid responsibility for these type of actions.

In your comment on Sharia abuse, you have said....

Quote:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225416753/30#30

This type of 'apology', is actually promoting a cop out [i.e. an avoidance of responsibility].

And i am sorry, but i say that those who 'promote' and facilitate such 'cop outs' *are* acting as apologists for the actual 'perps'.

The ppl who commit these offences, against socially weaker ppl, are using a [self-] perceived [social] advantage [bestowed upon themselves by ISLAM, being muslims] to shield themselves, and their own complicit 'brothers', from any consequences for their actions.

Many women, and non-muslims, who are in socially weaker position, are being victimised within Sharia jurisdictions, by ppl [by criminals!] who claim the protection of their [own] status, within ISLAM.

And yet, after the fact, ppl such as yourself, will come along and say,
"These ppl [perpetrators] are not real muslims.",
OR,
"These ppl [perpetrators] are not practiciing Sharia correctly."

Well really Gaybriel,
...if these types of statements [which you are making], are not a form of semantic 'deflection' [and designed to deflect responsibility, away from the very ppl who do bare responsibility], then what is!

And if real muslims believe that such miscreants are really, really, misrepresenting a virtuous ISLAM [as some ppl, like yourself, may wish to claim].
.....I have to ask,
.....why are there no muslim clerics all over the world 'up in arms', and declaring death fatwas against such ppl, who in these actions, are insulting ISLAM, and Allah, and the prophet, and bringing virtuous ISLAM into disrepute????

Hmmmm?

But just let one dhimmi [in a Sharia jurisdiction] call a teddy bear Muhammad, and the muslim world is in uproar, and baying for blood......

28 November 2007
Teacher charged over teddy row
A British teacher has been charged in Sudan with insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs.
The Foreign Office has confirmed that charges have been laid against Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool.
........Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam,".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7117430.stm

2 December 2007
Sudanese views differ in teddy row
......Clearly the Sudanese Government is coming under huge pressure internally about this case.
Some now want the government to send Mrs Gibbons back to court. They believe the 15-day sentence for insulting religion was too lenient and they would like her to be re-tried.
......Some chanted threats against the 54-year-old primary school teacher from Liverpool.
A group of men shouted: "She must be killed by the sword."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7123517.stm




++++++++


Gaybriel, TO ME, YOU CAN EASILY REDEEM YOUR MORAL POSITION [in my eyes], BY ANSWERING THIS ONE QUESTION,
.....AND SOLVING A MYSTERY.....

Please tell us all where, or who, are the 'rightly guided' muslims?
'Where in the world', are all of those muslims, who do conduct Sharia correctly?

Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Jordan???


Because it seems very obvious [to many who view ISLAM critically], that these virtuous, and rightly guided muslims, are keeping a very, very, low social profile.

In fact these real muslims appear to be totally invisible.

Are real muslims, your 'imaginary friends' perhaps?

Who are they exactly?




For as the Koran correctly states [/sarc off]....

"Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.082

and,

"Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/035.qmt.html#035.008

All of you [thinking of becoming] wicked ppl, be warned!

Allah is watching you.


and,

"And he whose sight is dim to the remembrance of the Beneficent, We assign unto him a devil who becometh his comrade;
And lo! they surely turn them from the way of Allah, and yet they deem that they are rightly guided;"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/043.qmt.html#043.036
v. 36, 37

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 12:12pm:





freediver,

Duh!

Isn't the answer obvious???

Those conservative muslim clerics in Pakistan are all 'misunderstanders' of [the real] ISLAM.

They are clearly not being 'rightly guided' by Allah.

And it is obviously going to be, the hot place for them!
/sarc off



i.e.
As the Koran states....

"Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.082

Only the rightly guided, are for Allah's paradise.
....all the ppl he chooses to mislead, are going to hell.


"......Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.088





p.s.

FD

As i mentioned, in my previous post in this thread, i am still looking for the 'rightly guided' muslims.

[not that Christian clerics are any better than muslim ones.
....in my view, God is God, and all organised religion is a crock.]

yadda and merou - I invite you to start a thread on the spiritual forum about that.

It'ld certainly have my full support !!!

Yadda wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:35am:


and you're entitled to that opinion. however, I do not wish for those who have done something wrong to avoid responsibility. what I am trying to avoid is placing responsibility on the shoulders of those not responsible but who are deemed it via association

Quote:


why is it an apology? does it mean that I support how these countries practice? am I apologising for their behaviour? hardly. I'm merely pointing out that it is incorrect practice of shariah. does that mean I don't have problems with shariah? no it doesn't.

you seem to read a lot into me just pointing out certain facts.

Quote:


my comments do not excuse those who commit crimes or abuses- in fact I see them as condemning them further (in this case)

as I have said in another thread, many people seem to think that understanding an issue and discussing that understanding somehow indicates an implicit support - this is not the case

Quote:


that doesn't make sense - can you explain it further?

from what I can see you are saying that people commit offences and use a superior position in order to shiled themselves and others- do you mean their position in govt or the legal system?

or by self perception do you mean that they perceive themselves as superior because they're muslim and that because they're muslim they believe they are above condemnation for certain actions?

Quote:


I agree

Quote:


I cannot say if they're real muslims, but they are following procedures and practises that are not true to islamic doctrine

Quote:


they're a statement of fact which do not attempt to deflect responsibility away from those who commit crimes or abuses.

Quote:


this is a very good question. I wonder what kind of criticism there has been on the practises of shariah in certain countries.

Quote:


many rightly guided muslims would live in these countries yes. many reside in other countries. I am unsure of how you wish me to answer this. what do you want- names?

I think you should consider the possibility that muslims who oppose extremism do not make the newspapers and do not have as great a voice as those who come out being crazy. this is not a conspiracy theory- it's just a fact. the same as for everything. sensationalism sells.

you could see it in camden- the locals were painted as redneck extremists, the moderate voices were toned down.

merou wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 1:13pm:


I agree- religions are a human construct and thus deeply flawed. from the beginning they have been about power struggles- the word of the doctrine itself gets lost and manipulated. one need only look at sectarianism in religion to see that

I've always thought it was a shame when people start to worship their religion instead of worshipping god

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:10pm:



How can muslims respond [positively, and reassuringly, within the Australian 'environment']?

By muslim clerics strongly affirming Australian values, when they speak to the media.

But it appears that the truth is, that almost no Australian [muslim] cleric endorses the Australian lifestyle and Australian democratic values.
.....[though i admit, this could be due to the reporting, and coverage given. BUT I DOUBT IT.]

EXAMPLES...

Muslim outrage over Judeo-Christian values
May 19, 2007
MUSLIMS are outraged that prospective citizens will have to acknowledge the Judeo-Christian tradition as the basis of Australia's values system.
Australia's peak Muslim body said the proposed citizenship question - revealed in the Herald Sun - was disturbing and potentially divisive.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21760652-662,00.html


Australia a Muslim nation
October 08, 2006
AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board says.
Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia.
Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia's destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20545617-1702,00.html


'Turn the world to Islam'
March 11, 2007
The faithful are told to obey only Sharia law.
....One book, Man-Made Laws Vs. Shari'ah, urges Muslims not to "accept anything from their governments and rulers except sharia", stating any other system is heresy.
http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,21985,21359122-2862,00.html

Gaybriel,

Are reports such as these untrue, and are they actually misrepresenting ISLAM in Australia?



+++++

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:10pm:


I have met Palestinians while travelling in Europe [some years ago], and we discussed their issues over Israel.

And i have spoken to many other ISLAMISTS, on a number of web forums.

I have found that without exception, ISLAMISTS won't admit any fault.

Even when you refer them to heinous crimes committed by muslims, their response always seems to be, to say the West is worse, and the actions by muslims are justified [sanctioned], because muslims are 'defending' themselves and ISLAM.

Their responses in debate are consistent.

ISLAM, good.
Everyone else, bad.


+++++++

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:10pm:




Gaybriel,

I am not concerned when the Koran encourages 'people' to be good.

But I am concerned about the dualism exposed within the Koran, which encourages muslims to be good, to other muslims [exclusively].

e.g.
"...as a muslim....i must have *hatred* towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4




The Koran is a hate manual, for a supremacist, political, ISLAM.

The Koran should be banned under legislation covering hate material.

Q.
Why isn't it???

A.
Because today, many, many, Australians are still ignorant of what ISLAM represents, and are ignorant of the hatred of non-muslims, which is espoused in the Koran and Hadith.

I would dearly like to see that circumstance change.


+++++++++


Gaybriel,

I thank you for your reasoned response, to all of the points i made in my previous post.

deflection.

Due to threats, I cannot say anymore here.