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replacing morals with rules (Read 18575 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #75 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 6:21am
 

Quote:
How do you know that Abu? Can you clarify what it all means for us?


According to Ibn Kathir (May God be pleased with him) it refers to how the previous communities, mostly the children of Israel used to ask too many pestering questions of their Prophets, to the point things became forbidden for them, based on their excessive questions. This relates back to the story of when God asked them to sacrifice a calf, which is mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah. Basically they were asked to sacrifice a calf, instead of sacrificing it, they asked Moses (pbuh) what kind of calf, what colour, how old etc. until the requirements became so stringent upon them that it was difficult to find such a specific calf.

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The existence of a red heifer that conforms with all of the rigid requirements imposed by halakha is a biological anomaly. The animal must be entirely of one color, and there are a series of tests listed by the rabbis to ensure this, for instance, the hair of the cow must be absolutely straight (to ensure that the cow had not previously been yoked, as this is a disqualifier). According to Jewish tradition, only nine Red Heifers were actually slaughtered in the period extending from Moses to the destruction of the Second Temple.

Source
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #76 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 12:29pm
 
So it's not actually a commend for Muslims, but a reflection on what happened in the past?
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Yadda
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #77 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 2:21pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Nov 10th, 2008 at 3:35pm:
This was the original quote from Yadda:

Quote:
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.....
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.101


Now aren't you the least bit curious why Yadda omitted part of the verses?

Here is the missing part:

Quote:
But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.








abu,

This part of the verse i omitted, is of no help to a seeker after TRUTH.

Within ISLAM all 'truth' is predetermined, even the 'truth' which is absurd.


Quote:
"But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you,....."


Yes.

A cleric will 'clarify' and explain knowledge to the seeker.

And the seeker must accept the explanation given.

There is no dialogue.

There is no questioning.

There is no reasoning together.


You must understand....

All devout muslims believe that.....

ISLAM is perfect.

ISLAM requires no reform.




As i quoted previously, muslims are commanded....

Quote:
"O ye who believe! ASK NOT QUESTIONS about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
SOME PEOPLE BEFORE YOU DID ASK SUCH QUESTIONS, AND ON THAT ACCOUNT LOST THEIR FAITH."


That is the instruction, obey the clerics.

Believe what THEY tell, and command.

Do not question, their determination, on matters of teaching and 'truth'.


ALWAYS BELIEVE THE CLERICS, ALWAYS BE OBEDIENT TO 'ALLAH' [i.e. the clerics].

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger,"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#047.033


THERE IS 'QUESTIONING',
....AND THEN, SUBSEQUENTLY, THERE IS ABSOLUTE SUBMISSION,
....TO THE ANSWER FROM ALLAH [and the clerics, who bring and explain his word].

PERIOD.





++++++++++



Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Psalms 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.


Jeremiah 17:7
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #78 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 7:46pm
 
Quote:
So it's not actually a commend for Muslims, but a reflection on what happened in the past?


It is indeed for us, it is a reflection on how previous nations went astray and how we should not stray like them, by excessive questioning that leads to hardship. It is probably worthwhile reading the story that this relates to, when the slaughtering of the calf was ordained for the Children of Israel.

And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright.
(Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:67-71)

This is the kind of incessant questioning that it refers to, which causes trouble and hardship in people's religion. Although obviously you assumed it to be don't ask "Is Islam true", "Is the Qur'an the word of God" etc.
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #79 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 8:01pm
 
I didn't know the jews spoke arabic, calling Yahweh -  Allah?


Shurly shome mishtake.

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Soren
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #80 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 8:19pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Nov 11th, 2008 at 7:46pm:
Quote:
So it's not actually a commend for Muslims, but a reflection on what happened in the past?


It is indeed for us, it is a reflection on how previous nations went astray and how we should not stray like them, by excessive questioning that leads to hardship. It is probably worthwhile reading the story that this relates to, when the slaughtering of the calf was ordained for the Children of Israel.

And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright.
(Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:67-71)

This is the kind of incessant questioning that it refers to, which causes trouble and hardship in people's religion. Although obviously you assumed it to be don't ask "Is Islam true", "Is the Qur'an the word of God" etc.




I really, honestly do not wish to personally offend you, Abu rashid, on account of what you believe,  so please stop reading now.

This is but one example of the unbelievable naivite of muslims. Mohammed says that he is the last prophet of god, offers up the revelations as they become necessary for his purposes, and the early muslims sit around, nodding. The Koran is so obviously not divine even in its inspirations that I find it simply unbelievable that people actually take it to be unaltered word of god. If they do, I am frightened. The jews and Christians at leats have the sense of proportion and humility to say that their texts are inspired. But to claim with a straight face that the above text is the best that god can come up with is just astonishing.

The Koran is not quite Finnigan's Wake but, by god, it's up there with it!





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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #81 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 8:34pm
 
Is that why there are no more yellow cows? Because the Jews killed them all?

That example does not seem relevant. As far as I am aware, the ancient Jews sacrificed animals constantly. So why would a command to do so trouble them? The Koran bit does not say "Don't pester me with trivial questions", it says "don't ask questions if the answer may disturb you". The trivial questions bit I could understand, but not the disturbing questions bit. It's like it is commanding Muslims to decieve themselves about the nature of the Koran to the extent necessary to maintain faith in an ideology that disturbs them.
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abu_rashid
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #82 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 5:03am
 
Quote:
I didn't know the jews spoke arabic, calling Yahweh -  Allah?


The most common name used for the deity in the Bible is actually 'elohim', not yahweh (which is probably just a contraction of the pronoun for 'him' anyway). Elohim is the plural of elah, which is cognate with Arabic ilah from which Allah is produced by merely adding the definite article. So perhaps the early Hebrews would've had a slightly different dialectal accent in the way in which they would've pronounced the word, but it would've been almost exactly the same as Allah. Besides, we simply don't know how they pronounced a lot of their language, but we know it most likely wasn't as modern Israelis do (with the Euro-Ashkenazi accent).

Quote:
The Koran is so obviously not divine even in its inspirations that I find it simply unbelievable that people actually take it to be unaltered word of god.


If you're referring to the content, then this is a story from the time of the Children of Israel. It's just being recounted, and it's amazing how much information is conveyed in such a few passages. If you're referring to the poetic quality of it, then it's well known the Qur'an is perhaps the most beautiful book of all time in it's own language. Translations depend upon the translators ability to transpose that beauty into a new language. Most translators of the Qur'an so far have been fearful to take poetic license and do much more than just a literal word for word translation, out of fear of changing the meaning of the pure word of God, and I do not blame them. I guarantee you if you look at a word for word literal translation of the Bible, you'd probably feel the same way (if you're actually being objective here). I've studied the Bible with Hebrew concordances and the writing style is very similar, due to them both being in Semitic languages. A lot of concepts conveyed with few words, due to the way Semitic languages can be used. But in the translations into English, a lot of extra words are added in to make it sound more comfortable in English. Personally I just think you're being picky, no doubt as an attempt to attack Islam from yet another angle, it's irrelevant, as the Qur'an has won many English speaking hearts, even if it's beauty isn't fully conveyed into the English language as of yet.

Just to give you an example, using one of my favourite Bible verses:
     
EnglishHebrew
Howאיכה 'eykoh
can you say,אמר 'amar
'We are wise,חכם chakam
And the lawתורה towrah
of the LORDיהוה Yĕhovah
is with us'? But behold,הנה hinneh
the lyingשקר sheqer
penעט `et
of the scribesספר capher
Has madeעשה `asah
it into a lie.שקר sheqer

Now see how many English words are used for each Hebrew word? That's adding stuff in, to make it sound a lot more English and a lot more comprehensible to *you*. If I were to just translate it word for word, as the Qur'an generally is, it wouldn't sound anywhere near as natural, in fact you'd probably just think to yourself "What is this nonsense?" (If you're actually objective on this issue, and not just trying to use any excuse to take a dig at Islam).

I will give you a word for word literal translation:

Where! you say we're wise for God's torah (the law). Behold the lying pen of the scribes made it a lie.

Now that is just one small example, but I'm sure you can appreciate the fact that just because something hasn't been translated the best, doesn't mean it is not a great book. Also consider that when the Bible was translated, most English speakers were Christians, so the best literary minds would've been employed to translate it. When the Qur'an has been translated so far, it's either been by foreigners who've learnt English as a second language (bad way to translate) or by Englishmen who've embraced Islam, but might not necessarily be the best person for the job of translating. Perhaps in a few more decades when a lot more English speakers become Muslims, then we'll see if better translations begin to appear Smiley
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #83 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 5:31am
 
freediver,

Quote:
That example does not seem relevant. As far as I am aware, the ancient Jews sacrificed animals constantly. So why would a command to do so trouble them?


Read the part I quoted above about Judaism, this is still today part of their religion, and they are still searching for this rare kind of cow. They admit to only finding 9 during a period of about 1000 years...

The moral of the story (yes you don't seem to think Islam teaches morals, anyway..) is that God asked them to do something, rather than just doing it, they asked questions (perhaps to mock?) unncecessarily, and so more restraints were placed upon them. This is also evident in their restrictions for Sabbath and Kosher food. Compared to the Islamic Halal food requirements, the Jewish requirements are quite extreme. There are so many different rules and regulations regarding what they can and can't eat. I've visited Jewish houses in which they actually have two kitchens built into the house, just so that meat and dairy products do not mix. Likewise for Sabbath they have all these extreme rulings. Mantra posted an article here recently, in which they've actually placed a huge wire fence around a Sydney suburb and plan to do it to another, so as not to violate the Sabbath.

Anyway, that's what Ibn Kathir (May God have mercy upon him) stated the verses you quoted refer to, is that excessive questioning leads to hardship. If you want to make something else out of it, you're welcome to, but quite obviously I'm going to accept the opinion of a qualified Islamic scholar over you.
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #84 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 3:17pm
 
Can you at least understand my confusion as to why this leading scholar would explain a command not to look into aspects of the Koran which people find troubling by comparing this investigation to asking trivial questions? I am not asking you to take my word over that of a trusted scholar. If anything I am asking you to place your own reasoning above it.
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #85 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 4:02pm
 
Quote:
Can you at least understand my confusion as to why this leading scholar would explain a command not to look into aspects of the Koran which people find troubling


That's the point, nowhere does it say "Don't  look into aspects of the Qur'an which people find troubling", that's your spin on what it supposedly says. That's what you'd like it to mean, and that's what you interpret it to mean, but it's simply not what it says.
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #86 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 4:06pm
 
Quote:
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.....
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith."

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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #87 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 4:32pm
 
Yeh now contrast that with what you said, specifically the word 'Koran'. The verse does not mention it, nor even remotely allude to it.

Btw, just to point out to you, Koran is a pretty bad transliteration, it's spelt with a very strong "Q" sound, nothing like the soft "Qu" of English, and certainly nothing like "K", and the vowel after it is "U" followed by "R" as in "Turnip".
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #88 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 4:45pm
 
So what does it refer to then? Doesn't this take us even further away from the yellow cow example? Doesn't it contradict what you were saying about Islam commanding people to seek knowledge? If unstated, isn't it more likely to refer to questions of doctrine than say, science?
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Re: replacing morals with rules
Reply #89 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 5:16pm
 
Quote:
So what does it refer to then?


I've already made it quite plain for you what it refers to. Obviously it doesn't fit in with what you wanted it to mean, so obviously you're going to reject it. Ibn Kathir (May God have mercy on him) was one of the greatest scholars of Islam, who memorised and was aware of the entire Qur'an as well as entire collections of hadith, so I think he'd have a much better idea of what it is about. Although obviously you think he's just being deceptive and trying to conceal the real nature of Islam... whatever ya reckon.

There is also some hadith that speak on this issue, and confirm that it is about excessive questioning that leads to hardship like what is mentioned in the story of the cow:

"Verily Allah the Almighty has prescribed the obligatory deeds, so do not neglect them; He has set certain limits, so do not go beyond them; He has forbidden certain things, so do not indulge in them; and He has said nothing about certain things, as an act of mercy to you, not out of forgetfulness, so do not go enquiring into these."

As well as the hadith where it's specifically mentioned about previous communities and their incessant questioning of their prophets:

“Avoid that which I forbid you to do and do that which I command you to do to the best of your capacity. Verily the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their Prophets.”
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