Australian Politics Forum - The Satanic Verses

tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #30 - Nov 11^th, 2008 at 8:32pm

Also here is extracts from one of the great Muslim historians Al-Tabari.

History of al-Tabari Vol. 6, The Muhammad at Mecca

Quote:

The Messenger of God was eager for the welfare of his people and
Muhammad at Mecca wished to effect a reconciliation with them in whatever ways he could. It is said that he wanted to find a way to do this, and what happened was as follows.
(this is cited from the early sources Ibn Humayd—Salamah--Muhammad b. Ishaq—Yazid b. Ziyad al-Madani—Muhammad b. Kali al-Qurazi)

When the Messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated with himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed:

By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is

he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire .. .

and when he came to the words:

Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-'Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?

Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:

These are the high-flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval.

When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they lis?tened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their Prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their Prophet, trust?ing in the message which he had brought and following his example. Those polytheists of the Quraysh and others who were in the Mosque likewise prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer or unbeliever, who did not prostrate himself. The one exception was al-Walid b. al-Mughirah, who was a very old man and could not prostrate himself; but he took a handful of soil from the valley in his hand and bowed over that. Then they all dispersed from the mosque. The Quraysh left delighted by the mention of their gods which they had heard, saying, "Muhammad has mentioned our gods in the most favorable way possible, stat?ing in his recitation that they are the high-flying cranes and that their intercession is received with approval."

The news of this prostration reached those of the Messenger of God's Companions who were in Abyssinia and people said, "The Quraysh have accepted Islam." Some rose up to return, while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, "Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you." Then the Messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who de sired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed:

Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation ( umniyyah ).God abrogates what Satan casts. Then God established his verses. God is knower, wise.

Thus God removed the sorrow from his Messenger, reassured him about that which he had feared and cancelled the words which Satan had cast on his tongue, that their gods were the high-flying cranes whose intercession was accepted with approval. He now revealed, following the mention of "al-Lat, al-'Uzza and Manat, the third, the other," the words:

Are yours the males and his the females? That indeed were an unfair division! They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers ...

to the words:

to whom he wills and accepts.

This means, how can the intercession of their gods avail with God?

When Muhammad brought a revelation from God cancelling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, "Muhammad has repented of what he said concerning the position of your gods with God, and has altered it and brought something else." Those two phrases which Satan had cast on the tongue of the Messenger of God were in the mouth of every polytheists, and they became even more ill-disposed and more violent in their persecution of those of them who had accepted Islam and followed the Messenger of God.

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #31 - Nov 11^th, 2008 at 9:03pm

I started to read the Rushdi's SV second time now and found it more entertaining then first time because of the research I've done and probably because I'm getting used to Arabic and Indian names.

I reckon that Ayatollah Khomeini took personal offence to it because the book's personage "Imam" looks bad and he looks like Khomeini. I think that is the real reason for his fatwa. Well, you don't mess with a psychopath even old one.

Quote:

This, for instance, has started coming: a mansion block built in the Dutch style in a part of London which he will subsequently identify as Kensington, to which the dream flies him at high speed past Barkers department store and the small grey house with double bay windows where Thackeray wrote _Vanity Fair_ and the square with the convent where the little girls in uniform are always going in, but never come out, and the house where Talleyrand lived in his old age when after a thousand and one chameleon changes of allegiance and principle he took on the outward form of the French ambassador to London, and arrives at a seven--storey corner block with green wrought--iron balconies up to the fourth, and now the dream rushes him up the outer wall of the house and on the fourth floor it pushes aside the heavy curtains at the living-room window and finally there he sits, unsleeping as usual, eyes wide in the dim yellow light, staring into the future, the bearded and turbaned Imam.
Who is he? An exile. Which must not be confused with, allowed to run into, all the other words that people throw around: émigré, expatriate, refugee, immigrant, silence, cunning. Exile is a dream of glorious return. Exile is a vision of revolution: Elba, not St Helena. It is an endless paradox: looking forward by always looking back. The exile is a ball hurled high into the air.
He hangs there, frozen in time, translated into a photograph; denied motion, suspended impossibly above his native earth, he awaits the inevitable moment at which the photograph must begin to move, and the earth reclaim its own. These are the things the Imam thinks. His home is a rented flat. It is a waiting-- room, a photograph, air.
The thick wallpaper, olive stripes on a cream ground, has faded a little, enough to emphasize the brighter rectangles and ovals that indicate where pictures used to hang. The Imam is the enemy of images. When he moved in the pictures slid noiselessly from the walls and slunk from the room, removing themselves from the rage of his unspoken disapproval. Some representations, however, are permitted to remain. On the mantelpiece he keeps a small group of postcards bearing conventional images of his homeland, which he calls simply Desh: a mountain looming over a city; a picturesque village scene beneath a mighty tree; a mosque. But in his bedroom, on the wall facing the hard cot where he lies, there hangs a more potent icon, the portrait of a woman of exceptional force, famous for her profile of a Grecian statue and the black hair that is as long as she is high. A powerful woman, his enemy, his other: he keeps her close. Just as, far away in the palaces of her omnipotence she will be clutching his portrait beneath her royal cloak or hiding it in a locket at her throat. She is the Empress, and her name is -- what else? -- Ayesha. On this island, the exiled Imam, and at home in Desh, She. They plot each other's deaths.

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abu_rashid

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #32 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 5:21am

Quote:

I have seen defences that say that you can't understand it unless you learn Arabic ?

Where have you seen this defence?

Arabic is not required to read the Islamic texts, as Yadda pointed out, neither is Greek or Hebrew required to read the Bible. However, it is required if one wants to become an Islamic scholar, and to make rulings based on Islamic texts.

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abu_rashid

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #33 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 9:46am

tallowood,

Quote:

Also here is extracts from one of the great Muslim historians Al-Tabari.
History of al-Tabari Vol. 6, The Muhammad at Mecca

at-Tabari's history is a history book, not an Islamic source text. It contains known true facts about history, and it contains fabrications and possibly all manner of half truths in between. This one has been proven to be a clear fabrication for a few good reasons.

1) The pagan Makkans offered Muhammad (pbuh) kingship, wealth and his choice of Makkan women, if he'd just compromise his message for them. He flatly refused by saying "Even if you put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, I would not give up this message, until God makes it victorious or I die in it's cause". Why would he reject those things, yet he'd compromise just for people to bow with him? Doesn't sound very logical

2) The verses that supposedly abrogate this verse, and expunge it from the Qur'an weren't revealed until many years later (about 8 years in fact), so that would mean the "Satanic verses" would've stayed in effect for 8 years, if they actually existed. And that 8 years saw the most brutal persecution against the Muslims.

3) Not a single hadith mentions this incident. Hadith are the only reliable historical sources we have of that time period, because of their massive amounts of corroborating narration chains from so many vastly different regions of the early Islamic empire.

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locutius

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #34 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 10:43am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 12^th, 2008 at 5:21am:

Quote:

I have seen defences that say that you can't understand it unless you learn Arabic ?

Where have you seen this defence?

Arabic is not required to read the Islamic texts, as Yadda pointed out, neither is Greek or Hebrew required to read the Bible. However, it is required if one wants to become an Islamic scholar, and to make rulings based on Islamic texts.

It may take me a while to find this reference, it may not have been this forum but I am pretty sure it was (as well as others). When I find it I will post it back here or start a new discussion maybe.

I did afterall say "understand" rather than just read. I'm sure that if I were to give you an interpretation that conflicts with your Iman's interpretation you are going to tell me that I have not understood it. I've read the Upanishads but parts of that were meaningless to me as other parts were clear.

It poses an interesting question about the word of God, that it CAN be interpreted in different ways. That a scholar is required? The idea that truths are revealed (round earth) to prove it is a divine text etc. Here's a hint for God, jehovah, Allah, Vishnu etc etc how about making the texts self revealing and uncorruptably linear in their meaning. If someone tries to alter the text, it changes itself back. Again, I will start a topic concerning this idea. Back to the Satanic Verses.

There has still been no comment about Muslim perception of this book, nor what is felt about the extended question of murdering artists.

Lestat wrote :And after all, he posts what you want to hear. God forbid you'd actually listen to what muslims says....nah, we're all liars, aren't we locuitus. I listen very closely to what Muslim's say. I listen closely to what anyone says, with the possible exception of sport commentators. So far the Muslim's have said almost nothing relavent to the question. Not in the way that I'm sure FD was hoping.

There was a small distraction about stars and moons on flags and I was half expecting Hogworts to enter into the conversation.

Is it acceptable for anyone to murder artists?

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« Last Edit: Nov 12^th, 2008 at 10:52am by locutius »

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abu_rashid

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #35 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 10:54am

locutius,

As I said already, it's a decree of the government of Iran, take it up with the Shi'a, since they made the ruling, and presumably believe it to be binding on *them*. Nothing to do with the rest of us (95%) Muslims.

Do you support the murdering of bricklayers?? What kind of nonsensical questioning are you engaging in.

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locutius

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #36 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 11:01am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 12^th, 2008 at 10:54am:

locutius,

As I said already, it's a decree of the government of Iran, take it up with the Shi'a, since they made the ruling, and presumably believe it to be binding on *them*. Nothing to do with the rest of us (95%) Muslims.

Do you support the murdering of bricklayers?? What kind of nonsensical questioning are you engaging in.

But you see I can easily answer the question? No it is not acceptable to murder bricklayers or artists. You have not been asked to do anything but answer a simple question. If you don't want to answer it then just say so. Like I said, your not American but you have plenty to say about the U.S.A.

What sort of nonsensical avoidance game are you playing? Omission and Deception?

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #37 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 11:19am I just don't consider your question aimed at me as valid, in fact I consider it quite offensive, therefore I choose not to answer it. You can make what you like of it, omission, deception, even an admission of guilt if you like, knock yourself out.
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locutius

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #38 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 12:03pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 12^th, 2008 at 11:19am:

I just don't consider your question aimed at me as valid, in fact I consider it quite offensive, therefore I choose not to answer it.

You can make what you like of it, omission, deception, even an admission of guilt if you like, knock yourself out.

Why is it not valid? The question is offensive. How so? What constitutes a valid question? We may as well come to an understanding on this now for both our benefit and for the forum.

What would I be holding you guilty for? That had not crossed my mind. Omissive and deceptive sure.

Is the reluctance because you would have to criticise fellow Muslims? Is this going to be like pleading the 5th amendment. Funny, I never understood pleading the 5th during the McCarthy Era, I would have plead the 1st. The right to believe what I want. Does dogma demand that Muslim's don't have that luxury and ettiquite demand they not speak their mind freely?

Can you answer these questions maybe without offering a position relavent to the offensive question.

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freediver

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #39 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 2:55pm

Quote:

Why would he reject those things, yet he'd compromise just for people to bow with him? Doesn't sound very logical

Apparently the devil made him do it. So it is not supposed to be logical.

Quote:

Do you support the murdering of bricklayers?? What kind of nonsensical questioning are you engaging in.

Perhaps you should just answer it then Abu. Islam forbids blasphemy, and as far as I can tell you haven't said what the punishment for blasphemy is.

Quote:

I just don't consider your question aimed at me as valid, in fact I consider it quite offensive, therefore I choose not to answer it.

I have added this as an example of hypersensitivity.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Hypersens...

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #40 - Nov 12^th, 2008 at 3:43pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 12^th, 2008 at 9:46am:

tallowood,

Quote:

Also here is extracts from one of the great Muslim historians Al-Tabari.
History of al-Tabari Vol. 6, The Muhammad at Mecca

at-Tabari's history is a history book, not an Islamic source text. It contains known true facts about history, and it contains fabrications and possibly all manner of half truths in between. This one has been proven to be a clear fabrication for a few good reasons.

1) The pagan Makkans offered Muhammad (pbuh) kingship, wealth and his choice of Makkan women, if he'd just compromise his message for them. He flatly refused by saying "Even if you put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, I would not give up this message, until God makes it victorious or I die in it's cause". Why would he reject those things, yet he'd compromise just for people to bow with him? Doesn't sound very logical

2) The verses that supposedly abrogate this verse, and expunge it from the Qur'an weren't revealed until many years later (about 8 years in fact), so that would mean the "Satanic verses" would've stayed in effect for 8 years, if they actually existed. And that 8 years saw the most brutal persecution against the Muslims.

3) Not a single hadith mentions this incident. Hadith are the only reliable historical sources we have of that time period, because of their massive amounts of corroborating narration chains from so many vastly different regions of the early Islamic empire.

History books are not less trustworthy then any other propaganda. besides neither Al-Tabari no Ibn Ishaq who told the same story were ever subjected to a fatwa for defamation by their contemporaries.

1 Mohamed's intention was not "for people to bow with him" but to save his own life and lives of his followers.

2 In 8 years the balance of power had shifted radically away from once-powerful Mecca toward Muhammad and the Muslims.

3 It is very strange that not a single hadith mentions Gharaniq incident including refutal while the story were repeated again and again. The reference and exegesis about the Verses appear in early histories. In addition to appearing in Tabarī's Tafsīr, it is used in the tafsīrs of Muqātil, ‘Abdu r-Razzāq and Ibn Kathir as well as the naskh of Abu Ja‘far an-Nahhās, the asbāb collection of Wāhidī and even the late-medieval as-Suyūtī's compilation al-Durr al-Manthūr fil-Tafsīr bil-Mathūr.

Very likely that hadith silence on the matter was due to religious politics of the time because temporary control taken by Satan over Muhammad made such traditions unacceptable to the compilers.
This is a unique case in which a group of traditions are rejected only after being subject to Koranic models, and as a direct result of this adjustment.

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Emily the Muslim

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #41 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:12am

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 1:03pm:

What is the book about, and why did Muslims get so upset about it?

Basically, parts of the story line where based on certain hadiths (traditions of the Prophet) that at one point, Muhammad (pbuh) was tempted by the Devil to add verses to the Qur'an allowing worship of multiple deities in order to appease the pagans of Makkah, but that these verses were later taken out after Gabriel corrected him. These hadith though were related by a narrator who was known to be a liar and fabricator of hadith, and so they are not accepted. Certain biographies of Islam do include them, only as that they include everything true and false, real or legend, which was relayed about the Prophet of Islam.

If you go to youtube, look up the user Ozzycda, he has some very informative videos on this and other topics.

The problem which Muslims have with Rushdie's work is that it perpetuates this false hadith/story that the Devil was able to tamper with the Qur'an.

The book was also banned in South Africa due to the pornographic and racist themes of some of its content. At one point a black character in the book who... eats... s-h-i-t, is made by Rushdie to say that white man's s-h-i-t (okay, yes I realize it's a bit juvenile to spell out curse words, but I really don't like to use them), tastes better than N-word s-h-i-t. Also certain figures in Great Britain, such as Marguerite Thatcher and the Queen of England are called names like whores and such.

Many Muslims who protested did not read the book, and just followed others' claims that it was blasphemous. Also, there are some things to be said about Imam Khomeini's motives in declaring such a fatwa over someone who is not even a citizen of his country, but Allahu a3lam (God knows) whatever those intentions were.

I have to admit, I too haven't read the entirety of the Satanic Verses. I tried to, but I just found it a very tiresome work to get involved in as a reader. I did read another work of his, Midnight's Children, which I did enjoy a lot. I actually have autographed copies of most of his works, including the Satanic Verses... I just don't have his newer works like the Moor's Last Sigh or that other book... I think it had the word Clown in the title, but the rest of the title is escaping my mind right now...

But, to conclude, Muslims felt insulted by many of the themes this book contained, and it and the cartoon protests are better understood as bursting points. Muslims are frustrated by many things in this world. They're frustrated by what seems to be an unending attack of their countries by more powerful nations, frustrated by what appears to them a robbery of the land and livelihoods of their brothers and sisters in Palestine/Israel, frustrated by what seems to be an attack on their culture, religion, and moral values. To many, all of the wars and invasions in Muslim lands today, seem to be a continuation of the attack against Islam and attempted suppression of Islamic values and cultures as was seen during the colonial era. Irreverent cartoons and books are just the needle that broke the camel's back, so to speak, and provide physical symbols to rally against. It's hard to rally and protest against something as immaterial as a country's foreign policy, but books and cartoons make good physical effigies to put before and stir up a crowd. All the frustration and anger let loose during the protests had been built up over decades of feeling wronged by the world at large.

That being said, I do not agree with such violent and aggressive protests, that end up at times killing some of those participating in them. When asked for advice once, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said three times (to emphasize) what is translated to English as "Do not get angry." If a Muslim gets angry, he/she should sit down. If he/she is still angry than he/she should lie down. If he/she is still angry, then he/she should perform wudu - the washing ritual made before prayers, to cool down. There is a lot of emphasis in Islam on patience and forbearance, just as there is in Christianity and Judaism. Once the prophet (pbuh) was sitting with one of his companions. People started to mock his companion, but that companion (it was either Abu Bakr or Omar... I almost always get them mixed up) stayed silent and patient with what the people were saying against him. Then the people said something against Muhammad (pbuh) who was with him. At that instant, the companion turned furious and got up to fight the people for what they were saying against the Prophet of Islam (pbuh). At that moment though, when the companion got angry and stood up to fight, the Prophet (pbuh) left. Abu Bakr/Omar (sorry, the confusion between them is my own), followed after instead of fighting and asked the Prophet (pbuh) why he left. The Prophet (pbuh) said "Oh Omar/Abu Bakr (I think it was probably Omar... Omar tended to have a bit of a hot-temper) as long as you were staying patient and keeping your silence there were angels praising you, but the instant you got mad, the angels left, and I do not stay in places where there are no angels." I think this is very good advice that all Muslims, and people in general should remember, not to let themselves fall into anger and irrational actions.

Thank you very much for reading, and anything I said of the truth comes from God, and anything I said that was incorrect comes from my own human fallibility.

Peace!

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #42 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:34am Thanks Emily, for taking the time to explain things in easy to understand terms and without arrogance.
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Emily the Muslim

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #43 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 7:25am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:34am:

Thanks Emily, for taking the time to explain things in easy to understand terms and without arrogance.

No problem. Always happy to help clarify things where I can.

Another thing to remember is that when people feel they are being attacked, the fight or flight mechanism can kick in. To the cries of, If you don't like it here, go back to your own country, many people can't. Some, like me, were born in the West, and have our lives and families here (although, funnily enough, I am planning a move to Yemen in May, insha'Allah - God willing, so I should say to such people, just wait and give me a few months and I'll be out of your hair insha'Allah). Others really can't return to their own countries. I have Palistinian friends and Bosnian friends who simply can't go back to their own countries where they were born for fear of violence and persecution. So without the flight option, there's only the fight option left in that mechanism. And that's what many people do resort to.

Surah (chapter) 103 of the Qur'an entitled Al 'Asr (the time) says:

1. By the time. [here Allah is swearing by the immensity of time]
2. Verily! Man is in loss,
3. Except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth, and recommend one another to patience.

*bracketed items are added to explain features of the Arabic style which are not as translatable into English or not understood as well in the translation*

So, although there is this fight or flight response, mankind (al Insan in Arabic) should believe in the One God, and perform good deeds, and recommend one another to performing good deeds and to patience.

God is with those who are patient.

And again, anything I say of the truth comes from God, and anything I say that is wrong is on account of my own limitations.

Peace!

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #44 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:01am

Emily the Muslim wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:12am:

...
Basically, parts of the story line where based on certain hadiths (traditions of the Prophet) that at one point, Muhammad (pbuh) was tempted by the Devil to add verses to the Qur'an allowing worship of multiple deities in order to appease the pagans of Makkah, but that these verses were later taken out after Gabriel corrected him. These hadith though were related by a narrator who was known to be a liar and fabricator of hadith, and so they are not accepted. Certain biographies of Islam do include them, only as that they include everything true and false, real or legend, which was relayed about the Prophet of Islam.
...
Thank you very much for reading, and anything I said of the truth comes from God, and anything I said that was incorrect comes from my own human fallibility.

What is the name of that narrator, not Shaitan by a chance? Also who decided what was truth and what was lie? Which rules did they use to determine that? Your own disclaimer at the end of the post suggests human fallibility, which in turn suggests fallibility of human decides and even Mohammed himself unless He was not human.

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