Australian Politics Forum - The Satanic Verses

Gaybriel

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #60 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:11pm

locutius wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:08pm:

But a work of fiction "The Satanic Verses" and how it was recieved by Muslims is the topic. What non-fiction inspired some of the story and what was made up is just where the discussion has most recently arrived.

We may get somewhere with this. Like FD and Emily have both agreed, Scientific method can't really apply except possibly in analysing physical evidence such as origin and age but not the validity of the message.

sorry what I mean is that when discussing the science of the koran etc- arguing it with fictional work is kind of pointless. I'm not saying the two can't exist in the same conversation

perhaps I'm not expressing myself properly

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #61 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:12pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 3:56pm:

I think if we're going to be talking about the koran and scientific method etc- it might be helpful not to bring fictional works into play (unless they're referring to something believed to be factual)- otherwise, there are total cross purposes here.

The name of the topic and the first post:
The Satanic Verses
"What is the book about, and why did Muslims get so upset about it?"

Is it about Rushdie's book or about Koran?

It is rather obvious that Koran here was mentioned only as attempt to explain why did Muslims get so upset about Rushdie's book.

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #62 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:17pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:11pm:

locutius wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:08pm:

But a work of fiction "The Satanic Verses" and how it was recieved by Muslims is the topic. What non-fiction inspired some of the story and what was made up is just where the discussion has most recently arrived.

We may get somewhere with this. Like FD and Emily have both agreed, Scientific method can't really apply except possibly in analysing physical evidence such as origin and age but not the validity of the message.

sorry what I mean is that when discussing the science of the koran etc- arguing it with fictional work is kind of pointless. I'm not saying the two can't exist in the same conversation

perhaps I'm not expressing myself properly

It is other way around we are discussing fictional work and explain it with reference to Koran. In any case all of this has nothing to do with science.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5695	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #63 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 5:09pm Of course you do because you have no idea what to say on the topic proper. Would be better if you read The Satanic Verses first.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #64 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:27pm Would be better if she stopped being an apologist and butted out
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5695	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #65 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:56pm You may download The Satanic Verses from here for free and read the book for yourself. http://www.filefactory.com/file/ac2b29/n/Salman_Rushdie_-_The_Satanic_Verses_rar
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Gaybriel

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #66 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:36pm

I have deleted a bunch of off topic posts

Quote:

Of course you do because you have no idea what to say on the topic proper. Would be better if you read The Satanic Verses first.

it's called having a sense of humor

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:27pm:

Would be better if she stopped being an apologist and butted out

my comments here have been in regard to the conflation of fiction texts and non-fiction historical texts when analysing a non-fictional historic text (the hadiths)- which is where the topic turned.

it's quite simple really

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #67 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:47pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:36pm:

I have deleted a bunch of off topic posts

Quote:

Of course you do because you have no idea what to say on the topic proper. Would be better if you read The Satanic Verses first.

it's called having a sense of humor

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:27pm:

Would be better if she stopped being an apologist and butted out

my comments here have been in regard to the conflation of fiction texts and non-fiction historical texts when analysing a non-fictional historic text (the hadiths)- which is where the topic turned.

it's quite simple really

You forgot to delete your "sigh..."

I know that I have great sense of humour no need to remind.

How do you know which ahadith are fictional and which are not after all most of them were written way after the event?

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Gaybriel

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #68 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:58pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:47pm:

You forgot to delete your "sigh..."

thanks I've fixed that- forgive me, quite tired tonight

Quote:

I know that I have great sense of humour no need to remind.

I was more pointing out that I had one and that my comments should therefore be taken in that vein

Quote:

How do you know which ahadith are fictional and which are not after all most of them were written way after the event?

well this is a different point entirely. if your argument is that the hadith is fictional then go for gold.

I was merely pointing to the uselessness of using a fictional work to analyse a non-fictional work- but if you believe both are fictional then rock on

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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #69 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:10pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:58pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:47pm:

You forgot to delete your "sigh..."

thanks I've fixed that- forgive me, quite tired tonight

Quote:

I know that I have great sense of humour no need to remind.

I was more pointing out that I had one and that my comments should therefore be taken in that vein

Quote:

How do you know which ahadith are fictional and which are not after all most of them were written way after the event?

well this is a different point entirely. if your argument is that the hadith is fictional then go for gold.

I was merely pointing to the uselessness of using a fictional work to analyse a non-fictional work- but if you believe both are fictional then rock on

good
good
good but it wasn't me who introduced the "scientific" method argument in the discussion of the great work of fiction. I only provided reference when asked to sources where Rushdie(pbuh) got his information about SV from all of them reputable Islamic historians and scholars.

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Sam

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #70 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:50am

tallowood wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

good but it wasn't me who introduced the "scientific" method argument in the discussion of the great work of fiction. I only provided reference when asked to sources where Rushdie(pbuh) got his information about SV from all of them reputable Islamic historians and scholars.

What must be understood is that that early scholars wrote down everything that was reported about Islam, whether true or false, and classified them as such so that later generations would be able to recognise when someone is trying to pull a fast one, i.e. by passing off a fake verse as legit. So yes, its true that scholars did right down things about the so-called SV, but out of their scrupulousness and scholarly integrity, not because they believed them to have any validity. Rushdie may have used these sources for his fictional work (never read it), but that doesn't change the fact of the matter which is that they are forged verses to begin with.

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Soren

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #71 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 1:08pm

Sam wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:50am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

good but it wasn't me who introduced the "scientific" method argument in the discussion of the great work of fiction. I only provided reference when asked to sources where Rushdie(pbuh) got his information about SV from all of them reputable Islamic historians and scholars.

What must be understood is that that early scholars wrote down everything that was reported about Islam, whether true or false, and classified them as such so that later generations would be able to recognise when someone is trying to pull a fast one, i.e. by passing off a fake verse as legit. So yes, its true that scholars did right down things about the so-called SV, but out of their scrupulousness and scholarly integrity, not because they believed them to have any validity. Rushdie may have used these sources for his fictional work (never read it), but that doesn't change the fact of the matter which is that they are forged verses to begin with.

Well, why go apeshit over such obvious forgeries? Why act like a raw nerve was touched if they are such obviou nonsense, those satanic verses? Why kill actual people and declare a murderous fatwah over so obvious a mistake?
Why not just be reasonable?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #72 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 1:45pm I think blasphemy is punishable by death under Islam. Even if you are only joking.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The Satanic Verses Reply #73 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 1:52pm Perhaps under sharia. Rushdie and his translators did not live under sharia.
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tallowood

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Re: The Satanic Verses
Reply #74 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 10:49pm

Sam wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:50am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

good but it wasn't me who introduced the "scientific" method argument in the discussion of the great work of fiction. I only provided reference when asked to sources where Rushdie(pbuh) got his information about SV from all of them reputable Islamic historians and scholars.

What must be understood is that that early scholars wrote down everything that was reported about Islam, whether true or false, and classified them as such so that later generations would be able to recognise when someone is trying to pull a fast one, i.e. by passing off a fake verse as legit. So yes, its true that scholars did right down things about the so-called SV, but out of their scrupulousness and scholarly integrity, not because they believed them to have any validity. Rushdie may have used these sources for his fictional work (never read it), but that doesn't change the fact of the matter which is that they are forged verses to begin with.

That's true, Al-Tabari wrote "Let the reader be aware that whatever I mention in my book is relied on the news that were narrated by some men. I had attributed these stories to their narrators, without inferring anything from their incidents ." But that equally puts under the same suspicion the rest of his "History of the Prophets and Kings" including anything about Mohamed.

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