Australian Politics Forum - Could Islam be evil?

Rintrah

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #30 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 4:53pm

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Thanks for straight answer.

it is a pleasure to have it recognised as such.

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IMHO, Spanish Inquisition was and is completely unjustifiable without any reservations. It was evil and stupid just as suicide bombings are.

Indeed, though it was acceptable at the time by the authorities of the day, something which Suicide bombings are not. In fact when it came time to enforce religious orthodoxy in the 'Indios' in New Spain, the authorities drew influence from the Maliki Islamic School of Thought in saying that an inquisition was not just, as it is a condition of conversion that the individual enters into a conversion willingly. This argument (based in Islamic law) ended the 'Indian inquisition' in Mexico, and caused the Bishop in charge of it to be prosecuted by the colonial authorities. Crazy stuff eh?

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tallowood

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #31 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 5:20pm

Rintrah wrote on Dec 18^th, 2008 at 10:53pm:

...
Quote:

IMHO, Spanish Inquisition was and is completely unjustifiable without any reservations. It was evil and stupid just as suicide bombings are.

Indeed, though it was acceptable at the time by the authorities of the day, something which Suicide bombings are not. In fact when it came time to enforce religious orthodoxy in the 'Indios' in New Spain, the authorities drew influence from the Maliki Islamic School of Thought in saying that an inquisition was not just, as it is a condition of conversion that the individual enters into a conversion willingly. This argument (based in Islamic law) ended the 'Indian inquisition' in Mexico, and caused the Bishop in charge of it to be prosecuted by the colonial authorities. Crazy stuff eh?

It was acceptable only by authorities of Spain because of their religious blindness even Italians were feeling uncomfortable with it and Pope sent his legate to investigate abuses of the faith. Other Christian rulers had outright denounced it.
Also note that this was few hundred years ago while Islamic suicides are current.

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Rintrah

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #32 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 7:16pm

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It was acceptable only by authorities of Spain because of their religious blindness even Italians were feeling uncomfortable with it and Pope sent his legate to investigate abuses of the faith. Other Christian rulers had outright denounced it.
Also note that this was few hundred years ago while Islamic suicides are current.

It was sanctioned by the pope as far as I am aware. It was an acceptable means of encouraging unity in the emerging Spanish nation. A demonisation and descrimination against minorities for their 'otherness' either religiously or culturally has long been used as a means of promoting national unity.

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Also note that this was few hundred years ago while Islamic suicides are current.

Again, I would be very hesitant to call any suicide 'Islamic'. This gives people the idea that they are somehow sanctioned by the majority of Muslims, which they are not.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Could Islam be evil? Reply #33 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 7:28pm good grief... you let rin get away with too much tallow... be that as it is... If suicide bombing is un-Islamic... what are you and the rest of the faith doing about it?
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Rintrah

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #34 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 7:47pm

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If suicide bombing is un-Islamic... what are you and the rest of the faith doing about it?

I would have thought its declaration as illegal and its public denouncement to all and sundry would have been enough?

Its funny, the group that are the main supporters of suicide bombings as legitimate martyrdom come from Saudi Arabia, they are a group called the 'Salafis' with their roots in Wahabism. Now Wahabism was a fringe sect in Islam, with no validity or scholarly support, until a certain Kingdom of Saud was installed in Saudi Arabia. Guess who installed it? Guess who backs it to this day? One could well ask you the same question, why exactly are your governments supporting it?

Why did the US support the Taliban in the first place? Or the Shah in Iran (which led to the revolution)? Why did they send US special forces to shoot unarmed protestors in Jordan? Why do they back dictators like Mubarak in Egypt who tortures hundreds of people that oppose him?

If you want to stop people doing crazy things in the name of Islam, then maybe the governments of the developed world should stop paying them?

Astafirghillah for my tone, it just frustrates me when people say things like 'what have you done' or 'why aren't such acts denounced' when we are denouncing them, it is just that you are ignoring us.

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: Could Islam be evil? Reply #35 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 7:50pm Quote: If you want to stop people doing crazy things in the name of Islam, then maybe the governments of the developed world should stop paying them? So you're another one who blames the faults and vileness of Islam on the west. Find a new record, that one is well worn out.
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tallowood

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #36 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 8:08pm

Rintrah wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 1:16am:

Quote:

It was acceptable only by authorities of Spain because of their religious blindness even Italians were feeling uncomfortable with it and Pope sent his legate to investigate abuses of the faith. Other Christian rulers had outright denounced it.
Also note that this was few hundred years ago while Islamic suicides are current.

It was sanctioned by the pope as far as I am aware. It was an acceptable means of encouraging unity in the emerging Spanish nation. A demonisation and descrimination against minorities for their 'otherness' either religiously or culturally has long been used as a means of promoting national unity.

Quote:

Also note that this was few hundred years ago while Islamic suicides are current.

Again, I would be very hesitant to call any suicide 'Islamic'. This gives people the idea that they are somehow sanctioned by the majority of Muslims, which they are not.

The degenerate suiciders claim that they do it for glory of Islam this days the same way as Spanish authorities and a Pope according to you claimed Spanish Inquisition for glory of their faith. Therefore epithet Islamic very apt in conjunction with suicide bombers.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6035	Re: Could Islam be evil? Reply #37 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 8:12pm Rintrah wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 1:47am: ... Why did the US support the Taliban in the first place? ... USA don't support Taliban any more, in fact USA killing them now so you should be happy with USA actions NOW. Aren't you?
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Rintrah

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #38 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 8:33pm

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So you're another one who blames the faults and vileness of Islam on the west. Find a new record, that one is well worn out.

I could reply sarcastically and rudely, but I shall not. There is no way that I could answer such a statement other to say that the way of rebutting a statement is actually refuting it... rather than simply implying that what is being said has been said before. If it has been said before, I am sure you will have no problem showing me how the US and Britain don't back the Saudi Government? Or maybe that the US didn't back the Taliban? Or Sadaam? Or Musharraf, Mubarak, Pinochet, the Contras?

Maybe it is said alot because it is true? Wake up and smell the napalm, that sickly sweet smell is the burning flesh in Mai Lai. Or feel free to actually answer my critique logically?
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USA don't support Taliban any more, in fact USA killing them now so you should be happy with USA actions NOW. Aren't you?

The glorious U S of A has created Afghanistan as the number one producer of opium in the world. Has backed another regime similarly brutal in the place of the Taliban, and has killed hundreds of thousands in the process.. am I supposed to rejoice at this?

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The degenerate suiciders claim that they do it for glory of Islam this days the same way as Spanish authorities and a Pope according to you claimed Spanish Inquisition for glory of their faith. Therefore epithet Islamic very apt in conjunction with suicide bombers.

Indeed, and yet I would (despite the fact that it was allowed by the pope) NOT claim that the inquisition was caused by Christianity. And yet when it is reverse it is seen as perfectly legitimate to blame a religion that likens the killing of one innocent to killing all of humanity, for such actions.

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tallowood

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #39 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 8:48pm

Rintrah wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 2:33am:

...
Quote:

USA don't support Taliban any more, in fact USA killing them now so you should be happy with USA actions NOW. Aren't you?

The glorious U S of A has created Afghanistan as the number one producer of opium in the world. Has backed another regime similarly brutal in the place of the Taliban, and has killed hundreds of thousands in the process.. am I supposed to rejoice at this?

Quote:

The degenerate suiciders claim that they do it for glory of Islam this days the same way as Spanish authorities and a Pope according to you claimed Spanish Inquisition for glory of their faith. Therefore epithet Islamic very apt in conjunction with suicide bombers.

Indeed, and yet I would (despite the fact that it was allowed by the pope) NOT claim that the inquisition was caused by Christianity. And yet when it is reverse it is seen as perfectly legitimate to blame a religion that likens the killing of one innocent to killing all of humanity, for such actions.

Afghanistan was producing opium under the Taliban as well as a matter of fact USA trying to curb opium production lately but Taliban offers protection to opium traders for money of course. USA backed democratically elected government of Afghanistan even though that government isn't perfect it is much much better then Taliban.
I don't blame Islam in general for suicides but I don't shrink from saying that suiciders were Moslem as I don't shrink from saying that Spanish authorities of the Inquisition's time were Christian. We all should learn from our past mistakes.

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Rintrah

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #40 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:04pm

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Afghanistan was producing opium under the Taliban as well as a matter of fact USA trying to curb opium production lately but Taliban offers protection to opium traders for money of course. USA backed democratically elected government of Afghanistan even though that government isn't perfect it is much much better then Taliban.
I don't blame Islam in general for suicides but I don't shrink from saying that suiciders were Moslem as I don't shrink from saying that Spanish authorities of the Inquisition's time were Christian. We all should learn from our past mistakes.

Why do you say that the government of Afghanistan is democratic? When Karzai is representative of a group of warlords, and is himself a warlord who was responsible for the massacring of hundreds of unarmed POWs following the capture of Kandahar (I believe the method they used was herding the men into shipping containers and then using Kalishnakovs on the sides).

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Afghanistan even though that government isn't perfect it is much much better then Taliban.

In order to make this assertion you must have information about this? Something that shows that it is better? Where do you get this from?

A recent report:

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However, James Bays said that residents he met in Badakhshan, northern Afghanistan are growing wheat and sweet potatos for food, but opium is grown for money.

Hussain Ahmed said: "In Islam, if there is no food, we can eat pork. We know that opium is worse than pork, but we have no choice but to grow it."

While Jama Khan, a village elder said: "If we don't keep the poppies, our children will die of hunger."

also:
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Afghanistan's production of poppies is expected to hit a record high this year and will produce nearly all of the world's opium, a United Nations report is expected to reveal.

The report is also expected to criticise the international community and the Afghan government for failing to tackle the country's drug problem.

It will be the sixth consecutive year that opium production has increased, despite hundreds of millions of dollars given to programmes to halt cultivation, processing and trafficking.

What happened Six yours ago you may ask? I don't mean to patronise but the correlation is not hard to pinpoint.

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tallowood

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Re: Could Islam be evil?
Reply #41 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:40pm

Rintrah wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:04am:

Quote:

Afghanistan was producing opium under the Taliban as well as a matter of fact USA trying to curb opium production lately but Taliban offers protection to opium traders for money of course. USA backed democratically elected government of Afghanistan even though that government isn't perfect it is much much better then Taliban.
I don't blame Islam in general for suicides but I don't shrink from saying that suiciders were Moslem as I don't shrink from saying that Spanish authorities of the Inquisition's time were Christian. We all should learn from our past mistakes.

Why do you say that the government of Afghanistan is democratic? When Karzai is representative of a group of warlords, and is himself a warlord who was responsible for the massacring of hundreds of unarmed POWs following the capture of Kandahar (I believe the method they used was herding the men into shipping containers and then using Kalishnakovs on the sides).

Quote:

Afghanistan even though that government isn't perfect it is much much better then Taliban.

In order to make this assertion you must have information about this? Something that shows that it is better? Where do you get this from?

A recent report:

Quote:

However, James Bays said that residents he met in Badakhshan, northern Afghanistan are growing wheat and sweet potatos for food, but opium is grown for money.

Hussain Ahmed said: "In Islam, if there is no food, we can eat pork. We know that opium is worse than pork, but we have no choice but to grow it."

While Jama Khan, a village elder said: "If we don't keep the poppies, our children will die of hunger."

also:
Quote:

Afghanistan's production of poppies is expected to hit a record high this year and will produce nearly all of the world's opium, a United Nations report is expected to reveal.

The report is also expected to criticise the international community and the Afghan government for failing to tackle the country's drug problem.

It will be the sixth consecutive year that opium production has increased, despite hundreds of millions of dollars given to programmes to halt cultivation, processing and trafficking.

What happened Six yours ago you may ask? I don't mean to patronise but the correlation is not hard to pinpoint.

Six years ago Taliban started to protect opium traders which they still do while USA is trying to curb opium trade NOW.

You assertion about election methods in democratic Afghanistan are less true then the stories about how Taliban used to coerce people in blind obedience by threatening life and well-being of their children.

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