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Democracy is not about freedom. They are two completely different things. Just because they often go together does not mean they are somehow the same thing. It's just that democracy tends to result in more freedom that say, dictatorship. That's all. Freedom is a value. Democracy is a form of government.

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I saw him lecture in person. It was widely publicised. It was a huge turnout. In a large lecture theatre, there were barely any vacant seats. But no, that's not what I mean. I meant, how can I verify that what you say is a reflection of mainstream Islam? I asked you something very similar in this thread, but I don't think you could come up with anything:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225588455

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First of all, he paints himself as a reformer. Therefor he is not misleading me when he presents a view of Islam that doesn't match yours. Secondly, you have avoided revealing the truth on many occasions, making it more inconsistent than consistent.

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Perhaps 'someone' should start a thread about them and explain what they are really about. I think they came up in another thread recently.

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Terry Pratchet.

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Because often I think I understand, but then I discover you left something critical out of your revelation. The more I ask, the less likely that I will be decieved. So I like to confirm my understanding. Furthermore, contrary to what seem to be your views, paraphrasing someone and seeking confirmation is a pillar of effective communication. Without it, miscommunication is almost inevitable. Discouraging that sort of confirmation can only be justified if miscommunication is your goal. Furthermore, what you posted here concealed an aspect of Islam that is obviously of interest to many people, and one which Tariq says a lot about, so I thought it prudent to clear the air.

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It's news to me.

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Would that only apply to immigrants, not local born Muslims?

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What if the caliphate declared war on Australia?

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Why would that be wrong? Is a family bond with foreigners not a bond with foreigners?

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Why is it ludicrous?

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How so? Other than the Jewish deflection...

Phillip wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:47pm:


hehe- yeah man I like him too

I'm not uncritical of him- but I think he speaks from the heart as well as the head. I respect that.

From one cult to another...  well that explains a lot.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 6:52pm:


Crazy talk.

I said" Muslims, like everyone else" so don't fumble, yet again, with Christian groups. Does 'everyone else' cover everyone else?

There is a very noticable trend among various migrant groups, Muslims not least among them, who put an awful lot of effort into standing apart.But if they get treated as being apart, not of ''us"  they get all and start [peaking of racism and exclusion.

If you can't find your place in the new world democracies of Australia, US, Canada, then you are a conscious, deliberate misfit.

Liberal Democracy is not about the freedom of the minority group. It is about the freedom of the individual.  In exchange for the protection of individual liberty, it demandds only that individual liberty be honoured and proteected by all.

As political islam is against these principles, it is sly and underhanded of it to claim the protection of 'freedom'  but not honour the obligation.

By now most people know this and there is an ever diminishing band of incomprehending 'we-are--the-world' - ists. Now that the US has done the 'nice' by electing O'bama, stand by for a much more robust opposition to your creed.i

You're confusing democracy and freedom again Abu. Why does that keep happening?

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 7:16pm:


Australia also has emat pies, but you won't catch anyone saying "meat pies, and the freedoms they espouse...."

Our democratic system is based on democracy. Freedom is something entirely different. In fact democracy itself can be viewed as in opposition to freedom, as it is fundamentally the rule of the majority over the minority.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 5:29pm:



You got it right - privided that you recognise that it applies to Mohammeeans, as well as everyone else (yes, christian groups, jews,  blah blah).
That is, taking a dim view of islam is OK, it is not racist, it is not inciting hatred, it is not a rant, it is just - taking a dim view of islam. Opposing things openly is OK. opposing Islam openly is OK. No need to get all race-baitey and efnic sensitive-like if people say out loud what they think just because it does not mesh with your creed.

But you and the other 'total way of life'-ers want it only one way - you want all the freedom and democracy to piss on freedom and democracy but get all po-faced, outraged and menacing when others piss on your political aims, methods, propaganda.

And I am not talking about your soul and your way to commune with your god. I am talking about your politics - the staff that involves me, my friends, family, children. That is my business because I am in the same polity as you.

Democracy and freeedom means that your politics are fair game for ridicule, criticism, disrespect. I did not make your religion political, you, as Mohammedans did,  so if your religion gets caught up in the poo-fight, you have only yourself to blame.

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Obviously that's not integrating. There is no compromise with muslims and therein lies the entire problem. I drink, but if was asked at a certain time for a certain event to refrain then I would. Muslims, on the other hand, would not even attend an event where others were drinking (even when not drinking themselves). It's intolerance of the highest order.