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Soren

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #30 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:58pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:39pm:

Quote:

you want all the freedom and democracy to piss on freedom and democracy

Right, and what you need to learn is that freedom and democracy permit this. If you don't like it, then you have a problem with freedom and democracy. As a citizen of a free and democratic society, I have the liberty to disagree politically with the system and to criticise it, this is what seperates democracies from dictatorships. You seem to want to revert Australia into a dictatorship... Am I reading you right?

And I am free to denounce and ridicule islam as a political ideology.

I have no quarrel with you on account of how you care for your soul. As a religion, Islam is a pagan superstition and a parody of judaism. Beyond that i will not engage with it on a theological level unless asked. I have not said much beyond this theeologically. Your religion is no threat and I will defend your right to worship whatever you wish.

On account of the political dimensions of your religion, you are my adversary, not to say enemy. Don't call me islamophobic if I disagree with the political aims and methods of your religion. To me, your political aims are a theat to freedom and democracy. I will not accommodate your political claims out of 'sensitivity' to religion. You made your religion political, not me. If it gets covered in poo in the political poo-fight, well, keep it out of politics.
See if you can.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #31 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:47pm

jordan484 wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:55pm:

Quote:

not just that muslims dont drink, but that they are also not sposed to be around people who are drinking (even if they don't drink themselves)

Obviously that's not integrating. There is no compromise with muslims and therein lies the entire problem. I drink, but if was asked at a certain time for a certain event to refrain then I would. Muslims, on the other hand, would not even attend an event where others were drinking (even when not drinking themselves). It's intolerance of the highest order.

why is choosing not to go to an event not integrating? there are plenty of others things that muslims can attend without alcohol. it's just about making life choices really.

intolerance would be smashing up the alcohol supplies so no-one could drink.

if you disagree with something morally then by attending an event which encourages the behaviour you find immoral can be seen as endorsing it with your presence.

similarly- if someone believed the objectification of women in society was wrong, but then went to a strip club- their presence would indicate that they endorse that behaviour. not to mention the adverse effect it may have on them as an individual.

basically- it seems to me like you want muslims to change everything about themselves (thus coming to a version of themselves that you accept) but you see any request for similar change on your behalf to be unacceptable, against the ideals of free speech, freedom, democracy etc- and proof that muslims want to take over the world and make everyone like them

the irony being that you want all muslims to be like you (or some accepted version of you), and I don't doubt that if you had the power, you would put certain legislation etc in place to bring such an occurrence about.

yet this is the very behaviour you that you believe muslims display and damn them for

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Tariq Ramadan Reply #32 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:49pm For those who care for language - I did not use the infantile word poo in my post, but rather the correct 4-letter, germanic word starting with s and ending in hit. Language matters. Political poo-fight? Some people have no ear.
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Tariq Ramadan Reply #33 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:02pm soren- swearing is not acceptable on the forum. you know that, so just refrain from doing it in the future and the words won't be changed. I didn't mod it- it may be an automatic censor, not sure.
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Soren

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #34 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:04pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:47pm:

but you see any request for similar change on your behalf to be unacceptable, against the ideals of free speech, freedom, democracy etc- and proof that muslims want to take over the world and make everyone like them

Yes, it is unacceptable. But why is this controversial? Do you acceept demand of curtailment of freedom of speech, of thought, of equality before the law, secular governance?

I do not want my children's world re-primitivised. Is that insensitive of me?

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Soren

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #35 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:13pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:02pm:

soren- swearing is not acceptable on the forum. you know that, so just refrain from doing it in the future and the words won't be changed.

I didn't mod it- it may be an automatic censor, not sure.

Fine.

I do get the gordon ramseys occasionally and confess that it does give me a little frisson and a hot flush.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #36 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:16pm

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:13pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:02pm:

soren- swearing is not acceptable on the forum. you know that, so just refrain from doing it in the future and the words won't be changed.

I didn't mod it- it may be an automatic censor, not sure.

Fine.

I do get the gordon ramseys occasionally and confess that it does give me a little frisson and a hot flush.

lol @ frisson- you know I love it!!

it's cool man- I swear a fair bit in real life, I just try to keep it out of the forums (I will not always be successful with this though!!)

I understand that it happens, I just hope you understand that it will be hit with the dreaded red ink Shocked

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Phillip

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #37 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:10pm

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:58pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:39pm:

Quote:

you want all the freedom and democracy to piss on freedom and democracy

Right, and what you need to learn is that freedom and democracy permit this. If you don't like it, then you have a problem with freedom and democracy. As a citizen of a free and democratic society, I have the liberty to disagree politically with the system and to criticise it, this is what seperates democracies from dictatorships. You seem to want to revert Australia into a dictatorship... Am I reading you right?

And I am free to denounce and ridicule islam as a political ideology.

I have no quarrel with you on account of how you care for your soul. As a religion, Islam is a pagan superstition and a parody of judaism. Beyond that i will not engage with it on a theological level unless asked. I have not said much beyond this theeologically. Your religion is no threat and I will defend your right to worship whatever you wish.

On account of the political dimensions of your religion, you are my adversary, not to say enemy. Don't call me islamophobic if I disagree with the political aims and methods of your religion. To me, your political aims are a theat to freedom and democracy. I will not accommodate your political claims out of 'sensitivity' to religion. You made your religion political, not me. If it gets covered in poo in the political poo-fight, well, keep it out of politics.
See if you can.

on the democracy and freedom point. resently there was a study on the media freedoms in each country around the world and a muslim country beat the USa in it.(bosnia) Also you should check the number of muslim countries that use a democracy in one way or another(Bosnia, turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran)

Islam is no more anti democratic than any other religion.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Tariq Ramadan Reply #38 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:14pm Well Phil you mihgght like to tell that to the hundreds of thousands if not more Muslims that disagree with you. Who see democracy as un-Islamic.
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Soren

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Re: Tariq Ramadan
Reply #39 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:30pm

Phillip wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:10pm:

[quote]
on the democracy and freedom point. resently there was a study on the media freedoms in each country around the world and a muslim country beat the USa in it.(bosnia)

How gratifying. It is good to see that some countries do learn from western intervention. But then the bosnians are not exactly typical muslims, are they?

Quote:

Also you should check the number of muslim countries that use a democracy in one way or another(Bosnia, turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran)

One way or another - as long as the people are kept out of it.

Quote:

Islam is no more anti democratic than any other religion.

But it is far more political than any other - and that's what attracts all the howls of laughter or outrage.
What you do in the mosque (as a religion) is of no interest to anyone. Pray away freely.
What you advocate and stand for politically is toxic and therefore must be resisted.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Tariq Ramadan Reply #40 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 1:19pm Quote: Islam is no more anti democratic than any other religion. It is the only religion I know of that specifically forbids it.
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