This is just a quick query for Soren, as to why you use the phrase 'Mohammedan' etc?

The only time I've really heard this used is in old Orientalist works, or in Edward Said's book about Orientalism

"Under the entry for Mohammed, d'Herbelot first supplied all of the Prophet's given names, then proceeded to confirm Mohammed's ideologica and doctrinal value as follows:

This famous imposter Mahomet, Author and Founder of a heresy, which has taken on the name of religion, which we call Mohammdan. See entry under Islam.
The interpreters of the Alcoran and other Doctors of Muslim or Mohammedan Law have applied to this false prophet all the praises which the Arians, Paulicians or Paulianists, and other Heretics hav attributed to Jesus Christ, while stripping him of his Divinity...

"Mohammedan" is the relevant (and insulting) European designation: "Islam", which happens to be the correct Muslim name, is relegated to another entry. The "heresy...which we call Mohammedan" is "caught" as the imitation of a Christian imitation of true religion....it is the placing of Mohammed that counts...The dangers of free-wheeing heresy are removed when it is transformed into ideologically explicit matter for an alphabetical item."

p. 65-66

and....

"Gibb's preference for the word Mohammedanism over Islam (since he says that Islam is really based upon an idea of apostolic succession culminating in Mohammed) and his assertion that the Islamic master science is law, which early on replaced theology. The curious thing about these statements is that they are assertions made about Islam, not on the basis of evidence internal to Islam, but rather on the basis of a logic deliberately outside Islam. No Muslim would ever call himself a Mohammedan..."

p.280

As my contact with this phrase is limited and within the context of Orientalist texts or critique- I am surprised to hear someone using it and am curious as to why?

to be honest when I read it it seems like it's an underhanded insult, a way to demean- but in fairness I thought I would ask the man himself!!

hold on abu...you mean you haven't issued a fatwa?! tsk tsk- not living up to your duties are you?!

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 7:05pm:


John Safran managed to get a UK cleric to issue a fatwa on him. Yes it was childish, but it still reveals something very disturbing.

Who do the anarchists follow?

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The 'Sura'?? What is the 'Sura'? pray tell..

Do you even know what you're cutting and pasting? Or is it like the donkey that lugs the books of a scholar on his back...

I can believe that, I can also believe soren wouldn't know the difference between Ibn Ishaq and Alexander...

freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 8:06pm:



The same thing headless chucks follow.

Mohammedan points to the founder and the man followed. The term also paarallels 'Christian'.
It is a declension also used in other religious and non-religious group identifiers such as Methodist, Marxist, Anarchist and so forth.
It is no more insulting than any of these. Is there any insult in being  identified as a partisan, a follower of Mohammed?

It is certainly not as insulting as the terms used by Mohammedans to denote the 'out' groups (me among them) - infidel, kuffr and so on.

Language can reveal as well as conceal. I am concious of its unveiling power. Your squirming uncomfortably only confirms it.

You know, I never pray to Jesus and only pray to God. Always have. I even got in trouble at Catholic primary school for telling the teacher that. They didn't like that, especially when I told them if Jesus is God what's the difference.

Yeah, I was never popular with teachers at school, except right at the end of primary school, when I did some standardised testing. Then schools I had been refused entry to had their principles come to my school and offer me acceptance.

ah sick of hearing the moot point re worshipping allah not moh.

No one said a Mohammedan worshipped Moh.  In fact it is obvious who their God is and what they call him.

In fact I'm pretty sure it is the same God the Jews and Christians worship.

yawn...  really you need to read up on Christianity then and why would you assume non-Muslims don't understand the differences in various religions ?

Ah its that superiority complex isn't it.
Gotta watch that people will think you are arrogant or elitist.  

Oh I've never used the term...  and I've already said I'm happy to use the contemporary term...  tsk tsk tsk...  never assume sam

never assumed anything....

don't care if you were a Calathumpian...

Phillip wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:36pm:



Well, you are not rectifying that particular deficiency.
But then this is not the place, really,  for examplary self-projection.

I miss Lestat. At least he is true.

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 8:50pm:


I'm also pretty sure the n-word, and other drerogatory words can be found in selected dictionaries, doesn't make them more favorable.

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 8:16pm:


soren- I think the thing that is causing issues here is that, personally, I do not see using a term that will not offend others as something that will a) take away my freedom of speech or b) start some brainwashing process

rather I see it as a kind of basic respect for others- why go out of my way to use a term that will offend other people?

obviously in using it you wish to make a point- that you don't believe in islam, that you believe muhammed isn't a prophet and therefore that islam is not the path to god. and that's fine- you can believe that and no worries at all- but I guess my point is, that your stance is quite well known here especially.

do you feel it necessary to continue to use the terminology when you know it may offend others?

because I get the feeling that your interest is more towards venting your spleen through whatever way possible, as opposed to getting along with others (note that this does not mean that you can't disagree).

I think (excuse me if I'm wrong) that you see acquiescing to someone elses request for respect etc- is like saying 'ok I bow to your will whatever it may be- go ahead and take over the world'- that's a pretty massive jump

if that's the case then there's not much more that can be said- because that is your attitude. but if this isn't the case, then maybe you should have a re-think

Saying "La illaha illAllah!" is offensive to people of other religions too because it is obvious disrespect for other gods.

Sam wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:16pm:


here's the link for you Sam if you wish to post http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224928362/60#60

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:30pm:


just trying to help out a new member

most particularly in my mind was when another new member was recently asked to say why they converted but then they said they didn't have the link to the topic- if my memory serves me correctly

you needn't worry yourself so much with my motivations however, as me posting a link to another topic does nothing except allow those on this forum who have questions to get them answered.

something I have been accused recently of not allowing

Gaybriel, you'll have to forgive soren, he doesn't seem to know what hospitality is.

A new member is just someone new for him to ridicule and mock, welcoming is not on his agenda at all. It's quite strange, because my understanding of Christianity is that Christians should be kind and welcoming and forgiving to all, even their enemies. If only Christians actually practised what it is they claim to be defending.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:59pm:

Don't tar the chrisitians with me, I have not spoken anywhere here as a christian.

But as we can readily see in the koran, the Mohammedan mind is primarily preoccupied with Jews and Christians. That's what it all is, at bottom, a massive fit of resentment.

Well aboo i've never attacked you personally or Islam.  But you have had a go at me from day one.  Fine... 

Perhaps you just don't like difficult questions or the mirror being held up to you.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 12:49am:



You are tired, you are talking gibberish. Go to bed.

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lol. just lol.