Australian Politics Forum - Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy

freediver

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #15 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 9:55pm

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No, I mean like asking questions that are aimed at discovering some kind of perceived hidden doctrine of Islam

Like what they do with Hindus? Why aren't you allowed to say?

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And all the other nonsense you go on about and formulate your loaded questions around.

Why is it loaded Abu? You say that about every question you cannot answer, as if I know beforehand which ones you will get upset over.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #16 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:01pm

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 9:50pm:

Mohammedan points to the founder and the man followed. The term also paarallels 'Christian'.
It is a declension also used in other religious and non-religious group identifiers such as Methodist, Marxist, Anarchist and so forth.
It is no more insulting than any of these. Is there any insult in being identified as a partisan, a follower of Mohammed?

It is certainly not as insulting as the terms used by Mohammedans to denote the 'out' groups (me among them) - infidel, kuffr and so on.

Language can reveal as well as conceal. I am concious of its unveiling power. Your squirming uncomfortably only confirms it.

whilst I understand why you use the term, and that you don't think it's insulting...isn't what's insulting also defined by how the other person receives it?

I am sure some people will say that this is just PC crap and not to restrict freedom of speech etc etc- these aren't invalid points

but for me it comes down to two things 1) does it really affect me to change one word in my vocabulary 2) if I'm saying out of ignorance and then am educated, why keep saying it? 3) do I want to insult people? and 4) can I get my point across just as well using another word

I don't think that the word islam or muslims is any less associated with mohammed than mohammedans

I do agree about infidel and kuffar- I find these terms offensive and have argued with some people about it on MV before. I can link you the discussion if you like.

again it came down to the point where- the person said it didn't see it as offensive because it merely described someone as being an 'unbeliever' (in Islam)- but I found it offensive because of the context in which it had been used. when you hear those terms used by people who are talking about death and murder and justifying terrorism etc- the word itself takes on a nastier aspect.

I believe at the end of the discussion quite a few people saw where I was coming from

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Soren

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #17 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:04pm

Daniel wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 9:23pm:

It just shows your sheer lack of knowledge and credentials to speak on Islam in the first place.

The only credentials one needs is to be conciouss and verbal.
There is nothing special about islam that would exclude anyone from commenting on it. You do not need to speak arabic, you don't have to believe a word in the koran, you do not even need to respect it any more than you need to respect anything else. There is absolutely no ground for special treatment.

I am not your imam so the 'sheer lack of knlowldge and credentials' gambit is neither here nor there. You are not an imam, so you also lack enough knowledge and credentials to speak authortatively.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #18 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:06pm

Gaybriel,

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I do agree about infidel and kuffar

Infidel is not an Islamic word at all, and I doubt you'd find too many Muslims using it. It's actually a Christian word, but since Christianity became largely abandoned during the secularisation, the churches ceased using it, because it didn't help to bring back the 'lost sheep of the flock'.

As for kafir, it simply means 'one who covers over', in this case, one who covers over the truth about their Creator. It's not a nasty word and should not be taken offensively, other than the fact that it denotes denial of the one who created you.

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Daniel

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #19 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:10pm

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:04pm:

Daniel wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 9:23pm:

It just shows your sheer lack of knowledge and credentials to speak on Islam in the first place.

The only credentials one needs is to be conciouss and verbal.
There is nothing special about islam that would exclude anyone from commenting on it. You do not need to speak arabic, you don't have to believe a word in the koran, you do not even need to respect it any more than you need to respect anything else. There is absolutely no ground for special treatment.

I am not your imam so the 'sheer lack of knlowldge and credentials' gambit is neither here nor there. You are not an imam, so you also lack enough knowledge and credentials to speak authortatively.

I agree with you. But the least you could do is go by what the Qur'an actually says and the source [Qur'an and Hadith] as opposed to playing on misconceptions and the link.
For this reason I am trying to avoid speaking authortatively.

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Grendel

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #20 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:21pm

Infidel... is actually an English word... but then it seems most Muslims divide the world up into; Christian, Jews, Muslims and the rest. With only one being given any real credibility.

I'm sure if I could speak Arabic there would be lots of derogatory words and phrases used to describe non-Muslims... pigs and apes seem to be some words used by Arabic speakers. Teaching young Muslims no less.

I note even in English translations, speaking of which I recall us Kuffr/Infidels being described as sewage in comparison to the pure clear spring waters that are Muslims. Well done guys. Courtesy of Keysar Trad et al.

Play with semantics all you like, be pedantic to the point of stupidity... but don't think you have any credibility.

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Soren

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #21 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:25pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:06pm:

Gaybriel,

Quote:

I do agree about infidel and kuffar

As for kafir, it simply means 'one who covers over', in this case, one who covers over the truth about their Creator. It's not a nasty word and should not be taken offensively, other than the fact that it denotes denial of the one who created you.

As for Mohammedan, it simply means 'one who follows Mohammed', in this case, one who is the prophet of their (arabs') Creator. It's not a nasty word and should not be taken offensively, other than the fact that it denotes the one who is followed.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #22 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:28pm

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Infidel... is actually an English word

Actually it's Latin originally.

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I'm sure if I could speak Arabic there would be lots of derogatory words and phrases used to describe non-Muslims

Nope, there are none.

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pigs and apes seem to be some words used by Arabic speakers. Teaching young Muslims no less.

Wrong. God does state that he transformed some Jews into Pigs and Apes, but that's about it. Pig might be used to refer to an individual who behaves in a dirty fashion like a pig, but it's certainly not used to refer to non-believers in general.

Quote:

I note even in English translations, speaking of which I recall us Kuffr/Infidels being described as sewage in comparison to the pure clear spring waters that are Muslims. Well done guys. Courtesy of Keysar Trad et al.

There's nothing in Islam like that. Don't know what you're on about here, sorry.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy Reply #23 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:30pm soren, where have I taken offense to it? Use it to your heart's content, if that's what makes you happy, no skin off my nose.
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Soren

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #24 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:32pm

Daniel wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:10pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:04pm:

Daniel wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 9:23pm:

It just shows your sheer lack of knowledge and credentials to speak on Islam in the first place.

The only credentials one needs is to be conciouss and verbal.
There is nothing special about islam that would exclude anyone from commenting on it. You do not need to speak arabic, you don't have to believe a word in the koran, you do not even need to respect it any more than you need to respect anything else. There is absolutely no ground for special treatment.

I am not your imam so the 'sheer lack of knlowldge and credentials' gambit is neither here nor there. You are not an imam, so you also lack enough knowledge and credentials to speak authortatively.

I agree with you. But the least you could do is go by what the Qur'an actually says and the source [Qur'an and Hadith] as opposed to playing on misconceptions and the link.
For this reason I am trying to avoid speaking authortatively.

I have absolutely no reason to submit to or go by what the Koran says. There is no more misconception in 'Mohammedan' than in believing Mohammed to be god's final prophet.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy Reply #25 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:34pm Everyone has to submit to God's will at some point. For you it will probably not be until the day of judgement
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Daniel

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #26 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:34pm

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:32pm:

I have absolutely no reason to submit to or go by what the Koran says. There is no more misconception in 'Mohammedan' than in believing Mohammed to be god's final prophet.

I never said you had to submit, that's your prerogative. I just think you should know what you're talking about before you speak of it. Then again, I guess that's logical...

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Soren

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Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy
Reply #27 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:38pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:30pm:

soren, where have I taken offense to it?

Did I say you did?

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Use it to your heart's content, if that's what makes you happy, no skin off my nose.

Thank you, that's what I thought. Tolerance. Ain't it beautiful?

Gaybriel, please file. And two coffees, please.

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Daniel New Member Offline La illaha illAllah! Posts: 29 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy Reply #28 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:39pm Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:38pm: Gaybriel, please file. What's this mean?
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islamophobic self-fulfilling prophecy Reply #29 - Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:40pm abu_rashid wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 10:34pm: Everyone has to submit to God's will at some point. For you it will probably not be until the day of judgement I said Koran, did I not? Not the same thing.
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