Australian Politics Forum - Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??

muso

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #15 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:50pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:36pm:

Abu - thanks for your input.
Yes, one of God's answers to me was "because of the deceiver."

Which is about all he does, deceive.
he's just a shifty powerless liar with bad dress sense !!!!!

I've got bad dress sense, and I'm actually wearing a bright red tee-shirt today. Does the job pay well? Wink

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #16 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:33pm A bright red tshirt !!!!!! Does it go with your tail muso ??
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Phillip

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #17 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:56pm

jordan484 wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:29pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:33am:

The only illogical and convulted idea I see bing propounded here is the one that God got it wrong. He gave it his best shot, but failed. And had to try again with a whole new religion based on completely different ideas.

What you're effectively saying is God didn't know what he was doing, messed up and had to try again.

Whereas the Islamic concept is that the exact same religion of pure monotheism is sent time and time again and man continually falls away from it. There's no progression from judaism to christianity to Islam in our teaching, we believe the same religion sent every single time was pure monotheism (or Islam), judaism is not mentioned one single time in the OT, and even in the NT, it's just mentioned to refer to the religion the Jews happen to practise, the religion is not actually called Judaism.

Could you get any more arrogant? I mean, really, do you see it and don't care, or are you completely unaware of it?

Most likely explanation, for all this nonsense, is that man has imagined these "messages", imagined "god"....why? Because humans need to believe in something. They always have, from the Australian aboriginals Dreamtime, to Hindus, Buddhists...everywhere you look in every part of the world humans have invented some sort of god/s some sort of spirituality that explains the unexplainable. They can't all be right, so the logical conclusion is they are a human invention.

try again, Islamically god sent hundreds of thousands of prophets to a lot of different people. And as for it being a human invention, well thats another thread in that.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #18 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 12:21am

So, I guess we have about finished the chapter on jews ??
time to move onto the christian story.

The law had shown how far people had moved away from God.
According to the law, for sins a price had to be paid.
Generally a flawless animal was sacrificed to bring people back to God after people had sinned.
(Yes, not so good if you were an innocent animal !!)

The multitude of people sinning, and the ways of humans had turned was was supposed ot be spiritual into what was then a business.
A religion.
The keepers of the religion were greedy and cold no more help people to God than the blind could give directions from a map.

But still, Gods heart wanted his people with him.

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Classic Liberal

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #19 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 7:15pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:33am:

The only illogical and convulted idea I see bing propounded here is the one that God got it wrong. He gave it his best shot, but failed. And had to try again with a whole new religion based on completely different ideas.

What you're effectively saying is God didn't know what he was doing, messed up and had to try again.

Whereas the Islamic concept is that the exact same religion of pure monotheism is sent time and time again and man continually falls away from it. There's no progression from judaism to christianity to Islam in our teaching, we believe the same religion sent every single time was pure monotheism (or Islam), judaism is not mentioned one single time in the OT, and even in the NT, it's just mentioned to refer to the religion the Jews happen to practise, the religion is not actually called Judaism.

you are misunderstanding christianity.

Judaism is the covenant the jews made with god because that is the type of relationship they wanted with god, one of law.

christianity was the second covenant, just a different and more personal way to relate to the same god.

christianity teaches that all jews still have the old covenant with god, neither covenant is wrong, just that the jews were stubbern and wanted a relationship based on law so god because he loved them gave them what they wanted.

no one said god got it wrong.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #20 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 11:55pm

Quote:

Judaism is the covenant the jews made with god because that is the type of relationship they wanted with god, one of law.

The covenant was made with Abraham (pbuh) before Judaism as we know it even existed. There were very few laws mentioned in the original covenant, they came later. Besides, if you have no laws, you really have no religion. The law vs faith idea is a misunderstanding of modern Christians. The NT says you're not justified by the law, doesn't say to throw it out.

Quote:

christianity was the second covenant, just a different and more personal way to relate to the same god.

So why not just make it like that from the start, if it's the correct way? Why make all those people go through all that stuff in the OT, and then bring a whole different religion?

Also, I was never able to accept that the God described in the OT, is the same as the Christian God as defined in the Nicene creed, or even in the NT.

Quote:

christianity teaches that all jews still have the old covenant with god, neither covenant is wrong, just that the jews were stubbern and wanted a relationship based on law so god because he loved them gave them what they wanted.

How about Arabs/Muslims? You do realise your own Bible says the covenant was made with Abraham (pbuh) and his son Ishmael (pbuh) right? although it later revoked this, and claimed the covenant was with Isaac (pbuh) only, most likely as the Israelites began to fight more with their Ishmaelite cousins. They had a habit of slandering and denouncing their tribal enemies in their book.

Quote:

no one said god got it wrong.

Actually sprint did.

"The Law" that was intended to reconcile people back to God when they sinned now became a wall.. ..Which was the opposite of what The Law was meant to do.

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tallowood Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 6033	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #21 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 12:08am the covenant was with Isaac only, Ishmaelites worshipped many other own tribal gods for many centuries after not that I hold it against them as after all The God of Israelites is their tribal god too.
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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #22 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 2:33pm Quote: try again, Islamically god sent hundreds of thousands of prophets to a lot of different people. And as for it being a human invention, well thats another thread in that. No, I won't, I'm happy with my conclusion.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #23 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 5:10pm

Lets try not to be sidetracked by minor differences of opinion.
this thread is just to give a broad outline and progression.

I'ld prefer for others to start specific threads on "sacrifices", "the Law", "sins" etc.

So, the people through their sins were kept from God.
In the law, a sacrifice is to be paid for major sins, in order to give spiritual compensation.
It can be seen as a fine, to put things right.

The pharisees (priests of the day) were not really behaving how God wanted them too.
Pride blew them up, they became unforgiving and stiffnecked.
ie, their privileged, respected and well paid position had turned some of them to a superior attitude.
They lacked compassion.
In such a state, they could not help others to lead a spiritual life.

God was unsatisfied with this, and decided to pay for everyones sins for all time by himself.

Pretty sweet deal really for us sinners.

Enter the time of Jesus Christ on the planet.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #24 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 10:09pm

Jesus on this planet is in complete agreeance with The Law.

The Law says a price must be paid for a sin.
The highest price was an unblemished sacrifice.

Jesus was without sin (unblemished).
He effectively sacrificed himself to pay for our sins.

If you have never sinned, you do not need Jesus.
you are a MUCH better person than I am.

There is no requirement to pray X times a day.
There is no need to attend festivals.
There is no need to find a path to God through a cleric/pastor/priest.
There is no need to offer further sacrifices.

To get redemption if one has sinned, there is a need for Jesus.
He has already paid the price.
Every sinner that comes to Jesus makes his sacrifice more valuable.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #25 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:58am

There are many predictions in the OT about Jesus.
Where he would be born, when he would be born, his lineage, his death, things that would happen during his life.

The guidelines Jesus gave were quite unlike The law of the OT.
Yet they went bejond the old laws.
As Jesus had fulfilled the old laws, they needed no longer apply.

Jesus commandments/guidelines are spiritual and nonreligious.
They are guides that apply to any society.

Things like "Do to others as you would have done unto yourself", "forgive", "turn the other cheek", "obey the laws of the land."
Laws like this are simple, yet complete and personal.
They easily replace many tombs of legalise.

Some people say the romans killed Jesus, some say The jews.
Some say religion, some say The Law, some say the pharisees.

His death gave us a release from the grip of sin, death and doctrines.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #26 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:37am Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:58am: As Jesus had fulfilled the old laws, they needed no longer apply. So killing, stealing, having carnal knowledge of your neighbour's goat etc became acceptable. - as long as you repented.
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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #27 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:44am muso - i like your posts I prob experessed myself poorly there. no, crimes are still not acceptable. "do unto others ....." repentence means a bit more than saying 'sorry" take care
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Lestat

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #28 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 12:36pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 12:08am:

the covenant was with Isaac only, Ishmaelites worshipped many other own tribal gods for many centuries after not that I hold it against them as after all The God of Israelites is their tribal god too.

Actually it was with Abrahams 'only' son (at the time). Given that Ishmael by all biblical reports was 7 years older then Isaac, it is impossible that the 'only son' spoken of was Isaac.

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #29 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:33pm lestat and others - I have copied and pasted your comments on covenant onto a new thread. Good luck with it.
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