Australian Politics Forum - Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??

Sprintcyclist

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Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Nov 13^th, 2008 at 11:30pm

It's an illogical convuluted inexplicable movement.

First was the jews. That Spirituality is pretty strict. Pray 3X a day, religious festivals at set times for set reasons and set periods.
Punishments set down in a book called "Deuteronomy."
This book and that way of living within it became known as "The Law."

After a period of time, "religion" crept under what God had intended with his "Law".
"The Law" that was intended to reconcile people back to God when they sinned now became a wall.
It seperated God from humans.

Which was the opposite of what The Law was meant to do.
It was meant to give humans a way BACK to God.
Instead, it really showed how far humans (men in particular) were from God.
Our sins kept us from God. Not the existance of The Law".

The sins always existed, The Law only defined them.

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Phillip

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #1 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:39am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 13^th, 2008 at 11:30pm:

It's an illogical convuluted inexplicable movement.

First was the jews. That Spirituality is pretty strict. Pray 3X a day, religious festivals at set times for set reasons and set periods.
Punishments set down in a book called "Deuteronomy."
This book and that way of living within it became known as "The Law."

After a period of time, "religion" crept under what God had intended with his "Law".
"The Law" that was intended to reconcile people back to God when they sinned now became a wall.
It seperated God from humans.

Which was the opposite of what The Law was meant to do.
It was meant to give humans a way BACK to God.
Instead, it really showed how far humans (men in particular) were from God.
Our sins kept us from God. Not the existance of The Law".

The sins always existed, The Law only defined them.

what law are you talking about?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #2 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:33am

The only illogical and convulted idea I see bing propounded here is the one that God got it wrong. He gave it his best shot, but failed. And had to try again with a whole new religion based on completely different ideas.

What you're effectively saying is God didn't know what he was doing, messed up and had to try again.

Whereas the Islamic concept is that the exact same religion of pure monotheism is sent time and time again and man continually falls away from it. There's no progression from judaism to christianity to Islam in our teaching, we believe the same religion sent every single time was pure monotheism (or Islam), judaism is not mentioned one single time in the OT, and even in the NT, it's just mentioned to refer to the religion the Jews happen to practise, the religion is not actually called Judaism.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #3 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 8:17am

phillip - there are many laws in deuteronomy. About medical, legal, social laws.
Things like what to do if someone is sick, gives details of the rash and how to get rid of it etc, if someone kills a neighbours oxen, rape, unlawful killing.
Details the sacrifices to be made, how to judge people or the recompense to be given to the victim .

Abu - yes, that was a way I thought of it for a while too. That God had got it wrong, so came out with plan "B".
After reading the whole story though, the entirety of it makes sense.
The "Laws" were correct. That people sinned and this removed them from God, does not prove the laws wrong.
It means the people are wrong.
eg, suppose I chronically speed in my car and repeatedly get caught and finally thrown in jail.
It was my speeding that caused that, not the laws on speed limits.

You are right, the word judaism is not mentioned in the bible (from my memory.) The religion in the OT is given for jews, or those who want to join and was known as the law.
I guess later on the word Judaism was coined. It always existed, that's what the OT was about.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5952	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #4 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 8:41am The main evidence of God's failure is existence of the Devil and his/her absolute evilness while maintaining God's omnipotence at the same time. This duality runs into logical contradiction.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #5 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:25am

Tallow - good thought.
You are saying, if God existed, he would have got rid of the devil ?

A hindu told me a while ago something interesting.
We are not meant to be here. We are meant to be in Eden.
We got here cause Adam and Eve ate that apple, and let sin (the devil ?) into the world .
Perhaps in Eden, there was no devil ?
We effectively left eden by our actions.

Or maybe having the devil around gives a natural balance.
Good and bad, man and woman ...
Just only ever having good would be boring and unreal.

If God "forced" us to be "good". ie got rid of the devil, our relationship with God would be false.

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tallowood

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #6 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:42am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:25am:

Tallow - good thought.
You are saying, if God existed, he would have got rid of the devil ?

Not quiet. God exists but is not omnipotent therefore there is continuous battle between Good and Evil or rather as taoists put it eternal balancing dance between yin and yang.

BTW, there is also a concept of Free Will, which makes Humans third great power and great acrobats.

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40711 Gender:	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #7 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:57am Good discussion tallow - thanks. maybe God opts to NOT do away with the devil ??
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5952	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #8 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:18am Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:57am: ... maybe God opts to NOT do away with the devil ?? It can be too. There are analogies of that like Catch-and-Release type of sport fishing or democratic governance system of Government vs Opposition.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #9 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:54am

tallowood,

Quote:

The main evidence of God's failure is existence of the Devil and his/her absolute evilness while maintaining God's omnipotence at the same time. This duality runs into logical contradiction.

Your point doesn't hold against Islam, although perhaps it does against the Christian perception.

In Islam, the devil is not like a "God for the other team". The devil is merely a rebellious creature, like any rebellious creature (even some humans) and is not 'absolute' evil, nor does he pose any challenge to God's omnipotence. There is no duality like this in Islam. The devil is more like a whisperer who merely incites humans to commit evil, rather than being pure evil himself.

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tallowood

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #10 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:27pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:54am:

tallowood,

Quote:

The main evidence of God's failure is existence of the Devil and his/her absolute evilness while maintaining God's omnipotence at the same time. This duality runs into logical contradiction.

Your point doesn't hold against Islam, although perhaps it does against the Christian perception.

In Islam, the devil is not like a "God for the other team". The devil is merely a rebellious creature, like any rebellious creature (even some humans) and is not 'absolute' evil, nor does he pose any challenge to God's omnipotence. There is no duality like this in Islam. The devil is more like a whisperer who merely incites humans to commit evil, rather than being pure evil himself.

Then why Islamic God can not get rid of Devil for good if it is omnipotent and see Devil as a threat to purity of Moslem thought and behaviour?

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jordan484

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Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #11 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:29pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:33am:

The only illogical and convulted idea I see bing propounded here is the one that God got it wrong. He gave it his best shot, but failed. And had to try again with a whole new religion based on completely different ideas.

What you're effectively saying is God didn't know what he was doing, messed up and had to try again.

Whereas the Islamic concept is that the exact same religion of pure monotheism is sent time and time again and man continually falls away from it. There's no progression from judaism to christianity to Islam in our teaching, we believe the same religion sent every single time was pure monotheism (or Islam), judaism is not mentioned one single time in the OT, and even in the NT, it's just mentioned to refer to the religion the Jews happen to practise, the religion is not actually called Judaism.

Could you get any more arrogant? I mean, really, do you see it and don't care, or are you completely unaware of it?

Most likely explanation, for all this nonsense, is that man has imagined these "messages", imagined "god"....why? Because humans need to believe in something. They always have, from the Australian aboriginals Dreamtime, to Hindus, Buddhists...everywhere you look in every part of the world humans have invented some sort of god/s some sort of spirituality that explains the unexplainable. They can't all be right, so the logical conclusion is they are a human invention.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40711 Gender:	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #12 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:36pm Abu - thanks for your input. Yes, one of God's answers to me was "because of the deceiver." Which is about all he does, deceive. he's just a shifty powerless liar with bad dress sense !!!!!
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21641 A cat with a view	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #13 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:59pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 9:25am: If God "forced" us to be "good". ie got rid of the devil, our relationship with God would be false. That is correct. And perhaps we would be God's slaves. Without freewill, perhaps we would all be muslims?
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5952	Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ?? Reply #14 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 1:07pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 12:36pm: ... Which is about all he does, deceive. he's just a shifty powerless liar with bad dress sense !!!!! a politician
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