It's more of a tradition than a rule.

For the first name, it is advised to change it if the meaning is negative. For example, someone who reverts and has the name Seth (meaning evil god of chaos according to one name meaning website) or perhaps Cameron (meaning crooked nose) might want to change their names for something with a more positive meaning.

For example, my first name is Emily. It comes from the Latin "Aemilia" meaning flattering one, or industrious/hardworking one. So that's a nice meaning that I'm happy with. I do have a nickname that I go by which is Amal. In Arabic, Amal means Hope, and Amali (which is Amal with the consonant 'ya'/long vowel 'ii' attached to it) means my Hope and is the way Arabs spell the name Emily in Arabic.

Generally you're supposed to keep your surname, even if it has a bad meaning.

A lot of converts do like to take Arabic names when they enter Islam as part of their new identities as Muslims, but it's usually a personal choice. There are some born-Muslims who might tell new converts that they have to change their names, but they would be mistaken based on what I've read of the traditions of the early Muslim community. I haven't found any tradition on injunction that makes it a requirement to change ones name.

ON the completely opposite side, I've met Muslims who absolutely refused to call me by any name other than the name my parents gave me, so there are definitely differences of opinion in this area.

On a side note... I find it completely weird that Seth means evil god of chaos, but that's what the name site I got it from said. In the Gnostic Christian tradition, Seth was one of the children of Adam and Eve, and was the pure line of humanity from which Jesus (pbuh) was descended. Oh well, Allahu A3lam (God knows) who comes up with these meanings.

I originally thought it was Muhammed's surname, pronounced poobah.

So has there never been a peace be upon her?
If not why not?
I note several names followed by pbuh

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 4:40pm:


hold on....I must be thinking along differnt lines

I thought you were referring specifically to when people said it after muhammed

my mistake!

yes it can be her or him to my knowledge

So no current women only men?

I tend to agree with that soren.
But then that tallies with the look at us we are different...  we don't want to fit in why are you treating us like outsiders attitude.

perfectly clear to me...
maybe you should try harder...

lol and I'm sure in earlier days they all ran around saying p b u h moh or whatever the equivalence in Arabic is.

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Grendel- I'm not sure what you mean here. The term pbuh is used for both women and men of certain standing as explained before. Such as prophets or admired figures in history. You will note that the position of these people in history applies across the sexes.

So both men and women for whom this blessing applies  are not 'current'.

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 6:42pm:


hmm- I personally don't see abbreviation as a lack of respect. nor do I see it as a cry for attention- as it's pretty much standard

it's just a part of the evolution of language since the internet (unless this has also been done in writings before?). The way people communicate changes over time, but this does not necessarily detract from the message itself.

If I write 'lol' I know it stands for 'laugh out loud', or 'brb'- be right back. the abbreviations themselves do not obliterate the meaning or intent behind what is being said.

sure if someone is just throwing things out in a tokenistic fashion then I see your point- but how do you know this? can you judge the intention of others or what they feel in their heart (or think in their mind) as they write something?

personally when I write I hear myself speaking the words in my head, same if I abbreviate something.

OH AND BTW GAYBRIEL I NOTE ITS OK TO DELETE MY REPLIES BUT YOU LEAVE THE ORIGINAL FLAME...  



and you wonder why you are seen as biased and an apologist  

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:21pm:


you're right soren I should have adjusted that- I was debating what to do with that in my mind

I have fixed it now.

you are always welcome to pm me as well if you have problems with my modding.

I hope you will notice the replies I deleted were not just yours.

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:07pm:


ugh- sorry grendel. like I said v tired

bed time I think!

feel free to pm me with your complaints about my modding, or alternatively you can post in the new thread I have put up in extremism exposed

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 11:45pm:


that was merely my comparison, admittedly a poor one- and particularly seeing as I am not muslim, this again is not reflective of the intention of muslims who use it

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I respectfully disagree but will think about it more also

ok Aboo

lets assume you pray 5 times a day.

Would it be acceptable to juast say
prayer 1.
prayer 2
prayer 3
prayer 4
prayer 5

I mean you've got the intention, concept and the representation.  How can it be any less...?

Since prayer is not writing, it's quite a different issue.

Writing is by it's very nature compacting of something more, down into a symbolic representative form. Written language is symbolism, so long as the written language conveys the exact same meaning then it's served it's purpose.

Grendel the discussion is not about saying "pbuh" though, it's about writing it.

Yes I am having difficulties keeping myself patient with such childish and mindless banter.

I'm sorry...  but I just argued with what was told to me... 

AS for praying for some reward...  is that why you pray?

See your point but think you are arguing oranges and lemons there H.

Grendel wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 10:38am:

Doesn't a person become a saint through some type of official process in the church? I don't think we have the equivalent.

EDIT: Oops I get it, you're talking about the abbreviation, not actual Sainthood... sorry

Good poiint helian, although I'm sure most of our resident Christians will tell us they don't believe in Saints anymore so it's irrelevant.

Not to mention Dr, Mr, Mrs, UN, NATO, USA, UNESCO, UNRWA, CSIRO and all the other millions of abbreviations in common written usage and some even in verbal usage.

As has been pointed out, writing is a form of abbreviation, an alphabet is just a series of characters that enable us to encode higher/broader concepts into a symbolic form. In reality those symbols/characters have no meaning at all, other than the fact other human beings recognise them and their ascribed meanings. So since you've all been told what "pbuh" represents, you can now decode it in your mind everytime you read it, to represent "Peace be upon him", which you unconciously already decode everytime you read it anyway to represent the sounds we associate with those 17 characters.

Whether you represented the number Nine like this: 9

or like this: 1001

In the end it's the same concept represented, but by different symbols. One way takes up 1/4 the space and probably intellect to decipher, so that's why we humans use it everyday instead of the other.

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That's probably because Christianity and Judaism have very little respect for God's prophets. Even in the Bible, they are slandered and maligned.

So not surprising that you'd not see a need to invoke peace and blessings upon hearing their belessed names.

If the english word 'poobah' came to mean 'peace be upon him' then you could say that instead, right?

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Isn't it also tedious to say it?

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Not exactly, it is a conversion to a different form. If someone says CSIRO, then that is an abbreviation. Going from saying it to writing it adds complexity.

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An alphabet encodes sounds, not concepts. By themselves those sounds have no meaning (except for maybe 'I'). It is when you string them together to represent a word that has meaning that they can start to represent concepts. So I don't really see the difference between using the abbreviation in writing and using it in sound. We don't have any funny rules that you can write CSIRO but you have to pronounce it fully.

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The symbols represent sounds, not meanings.

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Not all of us have. It took me a while to figure it out. I had to ask I think. There are plenty of guests and 'drive by' members who would have no idea what you are on about. It reminds me of people who use text style writing on forums (eg l8 for late). When you get kids on forums doing that sort of thing, they usually get criticised for it.

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When I read CSIRO, I decode it into five letters, not five words. I don't even know what the five words are any more. I don't see that as disrespectful to the scientists who work there.

Sam wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 10:46am:



Exactly - the tedium of ostentatious piety. It is bored and impatient to be really pious but it wants to appear pious. It is nothing but show-making.



ting bog mit mog.

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 12:47pm:



And they all said amen to that.

Sorry, some said ameen.

What instructions am I giving?

soren,

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It is a prayer to God, so it really has nothing to do with you. You are not intended to comprehend nor analyse the contents of someones heart who says/writes/abbreviates it. So quite frankly your opinion is worth squat.

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If you don't like it, feel free to exit the thread, or the forum. Nobody is forcing you to be here... having to listen to it.

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What is in the heart must express itself, or it isn't really in there is it? Just the idea of it is. Kind of like Christianity and all the golden rule stuff, sounds nice in theory, but very little of it is translated into practise... no doubt because you think God knows what's in your heart, and that's enough.

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Fine, exit the thread, and the forum, if this is your feeling.

Au revoir.

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I was talking about speach as well as writing. I was trying to make an important point, a point that holds regardless of whether it is in speech or writing.

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An abbreviated act of worship? Like posting "cya l8r gd"? Is God supposed to be impressed with the little shortcuts? Is this the same concept as prayer flags?

If Islam is mostly rule based, but does not require this act of worship, but you do it anyway, but then you abbreviate it because you can't be bothered doing it properly, but no-one else needs to understand it anyway, isn't that getting a bit convoluted? Why not just say it but not post it? It reminds me those those guys in robes who walk round chanting and hitting themselves on the forhead with blocks of wood. It's an outwardly compulsive act of no value that has replaced something internal.

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Is it really there if you can only be bothered expressing it in acronym form?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 4:58pm:

Hell, Ian, don't they all?!?!

Isn't it disrespectful to your audience to populate your writing with acronyms you do not intend them to understand?

A lot of people are quite vocal in their criticism of the unnecessary use of technical or unfamiliar acronyms, and justifiably so. But even in that case the author does generally expect the audience to understand. He does it more out of ignorance (of the ignorance of others).

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.

I'd also have a point if he used a single unfamiliar acronym.

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Same with any acronym. That doesn't mean their use isn't disrespectful to your audience.

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The fact that the author understands it does not mean it isn't disrespectful to his audience.

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I don't recall anyone mentioning offense, irritation or angst.

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I actually found that quite interesting, in a morbid kind of way.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 4:36pm:



You mean, let the turkeys get/wear me down?

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I don't have a lot to say. I have a lot of questions to ask. That was one of them. I knew almost nothing about Islam before Malik turned up here.

Soren wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:56pm:

Well enschuldegung, Mein Herr.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:04pm:

I forgive you. Rise.

mantra wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 7:58pm:

No. It means 'proprietor', especially Kwik-E-Mart proprietor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Apu.png

Soren wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:56pm:

And lo, he didst rise… and soon he didst rise so high that he could see for bloody miles.

I always thought abu meant father, as in Abu Dhabi  أبو ظبي‎  - father of the gazelle.

It's similar to the Indo European words Apa, whence we get papa and ata whence we get vater and father, but it's more probably international baby talk. In mandarin it's baba, and in Swahili it's also baba.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 9:54pm:



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Well, you did not get your permission in time for this post, then.

muso wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 9:53pm:

And how's yer father.

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Perhaps. Kunyas (patronyms) can also be used as just a nickname. For instance Muhammad (pbuh) was known as Abu Qasim, even though he never had a son called Qasim.

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That's hardly logical. There are infinite acts of worship you could come up with. It's not possible to do them all. Why settle for the ones that are disrespectful to your audience?

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You don't have to say so. Your actions say it for you.

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It is still disrespectful. People shouldn't have to ask, and the vast majority do not ask. As you said, you do not expect them to understand it, nor do you care whether they do. That's about as disrespectful to your audience as you can get.