Quote:I have pointed the CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO with the more clear and basic example in reply to your opening in the "Could Islam be evil?" thread.
I must admit my ignorance, which is why I desire that you point out the points I made in a circular form. Ie. You said this, then this, then this etc.
Quote:You were not "derided for requesting definition of terms" as matter of fact I did supply the base definition which can be used for clarifying more complex terms but you refused to accept or change it, which took the discussion of the topic.
Do you refer to:
Quote:The important mechanism of democracy is voting so people can express their will as the will for their government.
Because that is merely refering to one of the mechanisms of democracy, not exactly how democracy manifests itself. As I previously stated, I do not debate on ideals, I debate on realities.
Quote:Rintrah could you please try to explain how you get from criticism of democracy to saying that some other system is better (If that is what you are saying, it's kind of hard to tell). Also, I still don't understand why you use the terms liberal demcoracy and social democracy. Liberalism and socialism are outcomes of demcoracy, not properties of democracy itself.
Are you asking me to repeat the argument I already made?
Definition of liberalism (from Google):
Quote:The quality of being liberal; A political movement founded on the autonomy and personal freedom of the individual, progress and reform, and government by law with the consent of the governed; An economic theory in favour of laissez faire and the free market
Definition of Socialism:
Quote:An economic system where the means of production, distribution and exchange is determined by the state/public sector in some form. Can be centralized, decentralized, democratic or undemocrat
Can you see how the two are in conflict. I am becoming exasperated.. did you read that book I linked you to? These are important points for those living in a Liberal Democratic society. Liberalism and democracy are directly apposed: Liberalism equals the rights of the individual, democracy equals the rights of the majority.
Quote:Are you trying to argue that that is somehow democratic? Do you think this is a better system than democracy?
Democracy is not simply defined through means of voting, it is about the will of the majority.
Quote:Thanks for answering that question.
This is what I referred to, that some individuals have an inability to understand complex arguments and thus leap upon sound bites regardless of context. I think it has something to do with commercial news.
Quote:Islam predated democracy?
The Prophet Abraham (as) pre dated Greece, so yes.
Quote:How does QED misrepresent your answer?
Implying that the logical conclusion of my argument was that Islam is not democratic, taking that soundbite over the many other references I made. Similar to taking 'It is democratic in that the consensus of the Muslims is represented' as the crux of my argument.
I will again, just in case you missed it refer to the WHOLE sentence:
Quote:Islam is not 'democratic', nor is it 'liberal' it is Islamic, and a system that predated both, and oversaw the advancement of the most pluralist society ever (the Ottomans) and the creation of the basis of much of 'Western' Philosophy (see Universities of Cordoba and Palermo), along with numerous other social advancements that are yet to be topped. Conversly, 'liberal democracies' were brought us Aushwitz, 'Operation Just Cause', The First AND Second World Wars, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with many advancements in the fields of depression and isolation. I don't mean to start a whole new conflict, but it needs to be said. Liberal Democracy is fine if you live as a Rich White person in a country that is Liberal Democratic, it really sucks to be ANYONE else.
If you'll note I was not saying that Islam had no democratic aspects, or saying that it had no liberal aspects, I was merely asserting that it was neither in completeness, and is in fact its own system.
Quote:I still don't get this business about loaded questions. Questions can be hard, blunt and direct but loaded? I think loaded questions are actually more like statements or accusations? Why did you kill that man? I didn't! Question difused.
I refer to the question as loaded as the word 'democracy' has a value to it, that upon its rejection, the ignorant will come to the assumption that the answer represents a negative viewpoint, regardless of its content. If I were to say 'I am a liberal, therefore I do not believe in democracy' there would be slightly less controversy because such a statement is not made in a forum seemingly entirely devoted to a bunch of non-liberals sitting around agreeing with each other about how liberalism sucks.
Quote:Asking whether the question related to a particular type of democracy had no relevance to the question, but certainly could have been a qualifier to the reply. Eg " Yes, I believe in democratic processes but find the current systems of democratic capitalism that dominate repugnant and lacking in many values of democracy. etc etc"
In the context of the above, I think that if you re read my posts, you will see that I was doing exactly that.
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