Australian Politics Forum - Are Christians polytheists?

freediver

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Are Christians polytheists?
Nov 17^th, 2008 at 6:20pm

This topic is from the Islam board, where Abu started accusing Christians of being polytheists, apparently to hijack a thread where Muslims were explaining their reasons for becoming Muslim. Which was a shame because it was one of the few threads where Islam was being discussed in a positive manner. Anyway, Gaybriel asked us to move the topic elsewhere.

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 8:50am:

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That's because they know the Bible is full of monotheism

This just keeps getting more and more absurd. You argue that Christians are polytheists, but they don't believe in multiple gods because they know the bible is monotheistic?

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You can try to rationalise it however you like, the fact is there's 3 distinct entities that they claim make up God.

I have two arms, two legs, a nose, a mouth etc. Does this make me many people?

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I do, and they believe God is 3 entities... this is polytheism.

No. Polyehism is believing in many Gods.

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The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons

Did you actually read that Abu? It says one God.

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but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

How many Gods again Abu?

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So I do defer to them freediver

So you changed your mind? Christianity is about one God now?

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #1 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 6:54pm NO.. Pretty simple fact really. But I am sick of the denial and bloody-mindedness of the brainwashed to bother yet again.
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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40711 Gender:	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #2 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:53pm I am sick of muslims who divert every thread yet refuse to start a thread on the topic they continually divert to !!! Shows unconfidance and cowardice.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48841 At my desk.	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #3 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 10:30pm I'm interested to hear your views on this sprint, as I know you have been criticial of Christian institutions.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #4 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:33pm

I can only talk for myself.
I don't believe in many Gods, only one.

God (imho) is present in a few forms we comprehend.

" Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. "

Genesis 1:2
So there is The Spirit of God

And, there is a plurality of expressions of God.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Genesis 1:26

And, then there is more than one expression of him.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #5 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 6:41am

sprint,

Quote:

And, there is a plurality of expressions of God.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Plural pronouns are used extensively in Semitic languages to denote majesty and grandeur, they are used in the Qur'an as well, but it quite clearly does not refer to plurality of forms/entities/beings/persons etc.

freediver,

I merely said they believe in a god[head] that consists of 3 persons (their exact words). You denied this, and said I should defer to them to explain it. Then I brought you clear proof from their doctrinal sources which states 3 PERSONS, you completely passed it over and continued with the same persistent arguments (as per usual).

Also you completely ignored the point that most polytheistic religions also claim God is one in essence, yet 3, 5, 10, 300 in manifestations/forms/persons etc.

Without you ACTUALLY listening, and responding, to the opposing argument, you're participation in any discussion on the issue is just a folly, really.

It's quite ironic that you spend half your time bringing doctrinal texts from Islam to prove your beefs with it, reject outright the explanation of any Muslim, accusing them of deceipt, omission of truth, dodging arguments etc. etc. and yet for Christians, you do the diametric opposite, reject all doctrinal texts and demand everyone defer to inidividuals (most who probably don't even know the first thing about their religion, ona scholarly level) to give us the canonical facts about their belief system....

Can you please be a little more inconsistent, or is that the end of the line?

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freediver

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #6 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 8:15am

Why is it relevant what Hindus or other 'nominally polytheistic' people believe? That's up to them and has nothing to do with Christianity. In any case, argumentum ad consequentiam is a logical fallacy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/logical-fallacies.html#argumentum%20ad%20conse...

Christianity isn't even 'nominally' polytheistic. It's like if someone took the plural form of the personal pronoun in Islam and pretended that was proof that Islam was polytheistic, while ignoring the direct statements that it is monotheistic. Christians believe in a single God, and there has never been any confusion among Christians that there might be three. I've only seen this confusion among Muslims, though it seems even most of them are kind enough to let Chrstians decide for themselves how many Gods they believe in.

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muso

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #7 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 8:24am

It all comes down to definitions yet again. The Romans were initially polytheistic, but they had a lot of minor deities such as the Lares, the Roman guardian spirits of house and fields.

In Christianity, they have Angels, Demons and Saints who can intercede in Roman Catholicism. Traditionally these are not referred to as deities. There is only one God, and that God has three aspects or manifestations which are the father, son and holy spirit. The concept of the trinity as I understand it, is derived from the close associations between Christianity and Zoroastrianism, which has many more aspects than three.

Similarly Islam has a lot of minor deities including angels and Jinn. Traditionally they are not referred to as deities because the emphasis is on the belief that there is only one God.

To claim these as separate deities is as dishonest as defining an atheist as a person who denies God.

If you want to know about any particular religious position, the only honest thing to do is to ask a person or a group of people who share that particular worldview. To do otherwise is dishonest sniping, and that should always be ignored.

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tallowood Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 5951	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #8 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 8:47am So Atheist doesn't deny God(s) any longer?
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tallowood

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #9 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 8:51am

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There is nothing that is beyond the control of the Creator, the entire universe is his creation, not just it's physical reaches, but it's temporal reaches as well. Since God is not costrained by time, he is not locked into the present as we are. This aspect of human nature is what leads to a lot of the misconceptions about the Creator.

That explains the confusion of humans about singularity of a god.

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muso

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #10 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:13am

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 2:47pm:

So Atheist doesn't deny God(s) any longer?

So that was the most important part of my post for you? Do you have a fixation on atheists, tallowood? Why don't you just leave people to believe what they want without trying to attach labels on everything?

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

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Grendel

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #11 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:27am

2 quickies re sprints quotes.

As Aboo said the royal "we" does not signify multiple Gods... hear that Aboo..... lol. Also could not He have been talking to the Angels who already existed? just thought I'd toss that in.

"The Spirit" comment also can be interpreted many ways... but I note it is GOD's Spirit. However you'd like to interpret Spirit.

That's the Spirit.

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tallowood

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #12 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:38am

muso wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:13pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 2:47pm:

So Atheist doesn't deny God(s) any longer?

So that was the most important part of my post for you? Do you have a fixation on atheists, tallowood? Why don't you just leave people to believe what they want without trying to attach labels on everything?

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

Yes. No. I don't bother any individuals. No. Everything is as (ir)relevant as anything else.

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Yadda

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #13 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 1:34pm

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

"abu, some [Christians] may regard Jesus as one of three.
I admit that i don't fully comprehend the nature of the 'God-head', the nature of my God.
.....But in any case, i do not believe in three God's.
My God is one God, who's nature i don't not even nearly, fully comprehend."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224158764/24#24

"abu,
There you go again, limiting God.
I could prove to you from Genesis that the creator can be a part of his creation.
If you respect the Jewish Bible???
.....It seems to me, that the creator is a part of his creation, if he chooses to be."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224158764/28#28

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #14 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:22pm

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:38pm:

Quote:

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

Yes. No. I don't bother any individuals. No. Everything is as (ir)relevant as anything else.

The reason you don't 'deny' Ganesh is the same reason that I don't 'deny' God. For me, it's a meaningless phrase. If we want to promote dialogue, I suggest that we adopt terminology that is accepted by all parties.

This thread is just like a lot of the Muslim threads but in reverse. You basically have those who do not espouse the religion quoting bits of scripture from a (to them) foreign religion that they don't understand.

Some are also quoting bits of their own scripture that they don't understand, and that's a real worry.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but it's just a tad nonsensical and self indulgent to try to tell people something about a religion that they know more about than you.

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« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:29pm by muso »

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