Australian Politics Forum - Are Christians polytheists?

freediver

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #15 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:29pm

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:22pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:38pm:

Quote:

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

Yes. No. I don't bother any individuals. No. Everything is as (ir)relevant as anything else.

The reason you don't 'deny' Ganesh is the same reason that I don't 'deny' God. For me, it's a meaningless phrase. If we want to promote dialogue, I suggest that we adopt terminology that is accepted by all parties.

Is that the god of salad dressings?

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muso

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #16 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:32pm

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:29pm:

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:22pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:38pm:

Quote:

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

Yes. No. I don't bother any individuals. No. Everything is as (ir)relevant as anything else.

The reason you don't 'deny' Ganesh is the same reason that I don't 'deny' God. For me, it's a meaningless phrase. If we want to promote dialogue, I suggest that we adopt terminology that is accepted by all parties.

Is that the god of salad dressings?

He's the happy elephant God of Hindu mythology. He's the perpetual child god. You don't really have an equivalent. The nearest thing you'd have would be Santa Claus.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48841 At my desk.	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #17 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:36pm What do elephants have to do with children?
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Sappho

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #18 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 9:17pm

Are Christians polytheists?

From God's Perspective...
Exodus 20:3. Do not have any other gods before me.

That's the Second Commandment, for those who do not know. It acknowledges the existance of other gods.

From Christian Perspective....
Jehovah... God. Satan... god. Saint... demi-god.

In this sense, Christians are abiding Their Lord, by holding no other god before Him... not satan, not st peter at the gates so welcoming... not even ganesh and his promise of successes will see the Christians look beyond God.

Cool

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48841 At my desk.	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #19 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:01pm I always assumed it implied false gods, not 'other gods'. Isn't the trerm 'false idol' anyway?
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Sappho

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #20 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:10pm

Quote:

Exodus 20:3-7

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

The above is from wiki.... And now this one, to compare and contrast...

Quote:

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-commandments.htm

I think it's a done deal... Christians are Polytheist, cause God is. Grin

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tallowood

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #21 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:45pm

Sappho wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:10pm:

Quote:

Exodus 20:3-7

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

The above is from wiki.... And now this one, to compare and contrast...

Quote:

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-commandments.htm

I think it's a done deal... Christians are Polytheist, cause God is. Grin

Actually it follows from the text above that Christians are not Polytheist if they follow the will of their god. but if they don't then they are not Christians.

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Sappho

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #22 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:14am

pol·y·the·ism n. The worship of or belief in more than one god.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/polytheism

If by the will of God you are referring to the First Commandment, then no I'm not so sure you are right.

Polytheism is the worship OR belief in more than one god and not, the worship AND belief in more than one god.

So as a Christian you can Worship God And believe their are others gods as well as him and still be satisfying the Commandment.

What ever the case, I have proved, that God is Polytheist. And if God is polytheist, it makes no sense for His flock not to be.

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muso

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #23 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:20am

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:36pm:

What do elephants have to do with children?

Ask a Hindu.

I have a simple solution to this thread. Do any Christians think that Christianity is polytheist? If not, well they're the experts. Let's leave it at that. We can have smart alex atheists, Muslims and Buddhists talk about it until the cows come home, but they mostly don't know what it means to be Christian, just as Christians don't know what it means to be Muslim.

The Old Testament was re-written from texts that reflected the previous polytheist religion of the Israelites. Like the Canaanites, they had a polytheist pantheon. (By the way Ba'al just means God) Any Christian scholar will tell you that. The point about not worshipping graven images in the commandments was precisely that it was talking about the old religion.

Nowadays, Christians interpret it as worshipping 'Mammon', money, personal vanity, fashion etc, but in the 6th Century BCE, there was a genuine struggle between religious ideologies. The Jewish leaders had returned from Babylon and they had the new Persian and later Achaemenid overlords to consider. It's quite obvious from the OT, that they believed that those other gods existed alright, but they were less powerful than Jehovah.

How the original authors and editors of the OT interpreted the text differs considerable from how a modern Christian interprets the text.
The religion is alive and dynamic, so if you really want to know, ask a modern Christian or Theologian (most of which are atheists incidentally)

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:43am by muso »

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tallowood

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #24 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:36am

Sappho wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:14am:

pol·y·the·ism n. The worship of or belief in more than one god.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/polytheism

If by the will of God you are referring to the First Commandment, then no I'm not so sure you are right.

Polytheism is the worship OR belief in more than one god and not, the worship AND belief in more than one god.

So as a Christian you can Worship God And believe their are others gods as well as him and still be satisfying the Commandment.

What ever the case, I have proved, that God is Polytheist. And if God is polytheist, it makes no sense for His flock not to be.

According to you, Sappho, The God commanded to his people NOT to warship or believe to ANY OTHER gods but himself/herself. That includes Christians as well. That makes sort of definition for Christianity (for this particular case). Therefore if people worship or believe in more then one god they are not Christians.

God may believe or not in whatever but his flock can not in the same way as an adult may drive but children not.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #25 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:42am By the way, it's interesting to read what Herodotus wrote about the Persians: "[the Perses] have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly." Thou shalt have no graven image of God - Exodus 20:4 It all falls into place.
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tallowood

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #26 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:47am

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:22pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:38pm:

Quote:

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

Yes. No. I don't bother any individuals. No. Everything is as (ir)relevant as anything else.

The reason you don't 'deny' Ganesh is the same reason that I don't 'deny' God. For me, it's a meaningless phrase. If we want to promote dialogue, I suggest that we adopt terminology that is accepted by all parties. ...

I don't know your reasons but I do know mine and as long as an elephant keeps out of my veggie patch I am happy with it's behaivour but if it transgress I will drive it out. Note that in both cases I don't deny an elephant itself(including Ganesh) but do deny its access tomy veggies.

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muso

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #27 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:56am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:47am:

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:22pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 3:38pm:

Quote:

Do you deny Ganesh? I haven't heard an answer yet, but the question has the same relevance as yours.

Yes. No. I don't bother any individuals. No. Everything is as (ir)relevant as anything else.

The reason you don't 'deny' Ganesh is the same reason that I don't 'deny' God. For me, it's a meaningless phrase. If we want to promote dialogue, I suggest that we adopt terminology that is accepted by all parties. ...

I don't know your reasons but I do know mine and as long as an elephant keeps out of my veggie patch I am happy with it's behaivour but if it transgress I will drive it out. Note that in both cases I don't deny an elephant itself(including Ganesh) but do deny its access tomy veggies.

Ganesh is a magic elephant. He won't bother your veggies. He's heaps of fun. Indian kids love him, probably because the festival of Ganesh Chaturthi is associated with parties, nice foods and presents.

Quote:

Although he is known by many other attributes, Ganesha's elephant head makes him easy to identify.[9] Ganesha is widely revered as the Remover of Obstacles[10] and more generally as Lord of Beginnings and Lord of Obstacles (Vighnesha, Vighneshvara),[11] patron of arts and sciences, and the deva of intellect and wisdom.[12] He is honoured at the start of rituals and ceremonies and invoked as Patron of Letters during writing sessions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha

Quote:

Ganesha is a popular figure in Indian art.[32] Unlike those of some deities, representations of Ganesha show wide variations and distinct patterns changing over time.[33] He may be portrayed standing, dancing, heroically taking action against demons, playing with his family as a boy, sitting down, or engaging in a range of contemporary situations.

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freediver

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #28 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:57am

Knowing that the ancient greeks for example worshipped many competing gods, and actually believing that those gods exist are two different issues. I think that Sappho is merely exploiting an ambiguity in the text. Whether or not those gods exist, the belief in them was real and it seems pretty clear to me that the commandments refer to that belief. Christianity almost equates belief with worship.

In any case it is pointless to make a rule saying that something doesn't exist when it does. The rules governed the behaviour of people. They were not physical laws.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5952	Re: Are Christians polytheists? Reply #29 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:02am Ganesh Chaturthi looks like Pinocchio but wit flexible nose and bigger ears Note: I don't deny Pinocchio either.
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