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Are Christians polytheists? (Read 4908 times)
Sappho
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #30 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:33am
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 8:36am:
According to you, Sappho, The God commanded to his people NOT to warship or believe to ANY OTHER gods but himself/herself. That includes Christians as well. That makes sort of definition for Christianity (for this particular case). Therefore if people worship or believe in more then one god they are not Christians.

God may believe or not in whatever but his flock can not in the same way as an adult may drive but children not.


God never told his flock NOT to believe in other gods. Rather God introduced the concept of other gods existing. From that point, God demanded that none of these Gods are to be held before Him.

You cannot as a God, introduce the concept of other gods and then say to your flock, do not believe in their existance! Nor is God doing that, if you read the Commandments.

If I was to judge the motive here, I would say that God is looking to avoid a Greek Tragedy. For example, it would have been very difficult for Zeus to maintain his authority, if the flocks of earth maintained Chronos above all other gods. 
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Sappho
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #31 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:39am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 8:57am:
I think that Sappho is merely exploiting an ambiguity in the text.


Quote:
Exodus 20
3  Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


Where is the abiguity in the text?
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tallowood
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #32 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:51am
 
Sappho wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:33am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 8:36am:
According to you, Sappho, The God commanded to his people NOT to warship or believe to ANY OTHER gods but himself/herself. That includes Christians as well. That makes sort of definition for Christianity (for this particular case). Therefore if people worship or believe in more then one god they are not Christians.

God may believe or not in whatever but his flock can not in the same way as an adult may drive but children not.


God never told his flock NOT to believe in other gods. Rather God introduced the concept of other gods existing. From that point, God demanded that none of these Gods are to be held before Him.

You cannot as a God, introduce the concept of other gods and then say to your flock, do not believe in their existance! Nor is God doing that, if you read the Commandments.

If I was to judge the motive here, I would say that God is looking to avoid a Greek Tragedy. For example, it would have been very difficult for Zeus to maintain his authority, if the flocks of earth maintained Chronos above all other gods.  


God did not tell his flock to believe in other gods. He did not God introduced the concept of other gods existing Sumerians did that.

Quote:
After heaven had been moved away from earth,
After earth had been separated from heaven,
After the name of man had been fixed;

After An had carried off heaven,
After Enlil had carried off earth,
After Ereshkigal had been carried off into Kur as its prize;

After he had set sail, after he had set sail,
After the father for Kur had set sail,
After Enki for Kur had set sail; p. 38

Against the king the small ones it (Kur) hurled,
Against Enki, the large ones it hurled;
Its small ones, stones of the hand,
Its large ones, stones of . . . reeds,
The keel of the boat of Enki,
In battle, like the attacking storm, overwhelm;

Against the king, the water at the head of the boat,
Like a wolf devours,
Against Enki, the water at the rear of the boat,
Like a lion strikes down.


That poem introduces many gods and was written way back before Abram's time.


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muso
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #33 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:00am
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:02am:
Note: I don't deny Pinocchio either.


What do you mean by that sentence though? What specifically don't you deny? If I walked into a party and said "I don't deny Pinnochio", I'd wager that somebody would ask me to explain what the hell I was talking about.
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #34 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:08am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 8:57am:
Knowing that the ancient greeks for example worshipped many competing gods, and actually believing that those gods exist are two different issues. I think that Sappho is merely exploiting an ambiguity in the text. Whether or not those gods exist, the belief in them was real and it seems pretty clear to me that the commandments refer to that belief. Christianity almost equates belief with worship.

In any case it is pointless to make a rule saying that something doesn't exist when it does. The rules governed the behaviour of people. They were not physical laws.


Yes. It's Harry Potter all over again. We can apply descriptions and true/false attributes to all the other gods, so they exist intellectually as concepts. That's all that matters. We can have conversations about gods, and we can even have conversations with gods if we are properly motivated.

It's the human element that's important - the fact that people acknowledged the gods. The question is - how else would you define existence of that which is supernatural?

It's a long slippery slope of semantics.
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tallowood
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #35 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:09am
 
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:00am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:02am:
Note: I don't deny Pinocchio either.


What do you mean by that sentence though? What specifically don't you deny? If I walked into a party and said "I don't deny Pinnochio", I'd wager that somebody would ask me to explain what the hell I was talking about.


I mean the same as with The Elephant.


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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #36 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:13am
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:09am:
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:00am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:02am:
Note: I don't deny Pinocchio either.


What do you mean by that sentence though? What specifically don't you deny? If I walked into a party and said "I don't deny Pinnochio", I'd wager that somebody would ask me to explain what the hell I was talking about.


I mean the same as with The Elephant.



This is like drawing teeth.  Do you have a problem with Pinnochio stealing your vegetables ?
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tallowood
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #37 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:18am
 
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:13am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:09am:
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:00am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:02am:
Note: I don't deny Pinocchio either.


What do you mean by that sentence though? What specifically don't you deny? If I walked into a party and said "I don't deny Pinnochio", I'd wager that somebody would ask me to explain what the hell I was talking about.


I mean the same as with The Elephant.



This is like drawing teeth.  Do you have a problem with Pinnochio stealing your vegetables ?


The same as with The Elephant.

I don't deny Harry Potter as well but he should keep to his own veggies too.

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Sappho
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #38 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:23am
 
Quote:
Tallowood
God did not tell his flock to believe in other gods. He did not God introduced the concept of other gods existing Sumerians did that.


In Logical Form then....

Stated premise 1.
Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Unstated premise 2.
Other gods exist.

Therefore
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

God did tell anyone with a sense of logic, that there are, indeed, other gods. He was not about to deny that Ganesh, the God of Sucess, existed... now was he.

Rather, he is saying in plain understanding that he is the only god that cares about these people, so care about Him and only Him... in return.

*Reference for biblical text
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=9;
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #39 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:35am
 
Quote:
Rather God introduced the concept of other gods existing.


Wrong. If anything He ended that concept. The concept was already there. He did not introduce it. He merely acknowledged that the concept existed.

Quote:
Where is the abiguity in the text?


The ambiguity is in whether the commend refers to belief or worship (or maybe equates the two), and in whether it implies the existence of other gods, or merely the previous belief in their existence.

You are exploiting that ambiguity and in doing so rejecting both doctrine and a common sense interpretation.
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tallowood
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #40 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:36am
 
Sappho wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:23am:
Quote:
Tallowood
God did not tell his flock to believe in other gods. He did not God introduced the concept of other gods existing Sumerians did that.


In Logical Form then....

Stated premise 1.
Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Unstated premise 2.
Other gods exist.

Therefore
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

God did tell anyone with a sense of logic, that there are, indeed, other gods. He was not about to deny that Ganesh, the God of Sucess, existed... now was he.

Rather, he is saying in plain understanding that he is the only god that cares about these people, so care about Him and only Him... in return.

*Reference for biblical text
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=9;


It follows from above that:

1 God new about Sumerians.
2 People who follow Gods command e.g. Christians are not polytheistic. Q.E.D.

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muso
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #41 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:39am
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:18am:
I don't deny Harry Potter as well but he should keep to his own veggies too.



Ok, I can buy that. (I think) If your God should ever come visiting at my place, I won't deny him a nice vegetarian meal, as long as he behaves himself and doesn't start smiting me.

If he wants wine, I can supply a caraffe of fresh water and he's free to do any transmogrification that he pleases.

Otherwise he can go to hell, where he will presumably be served up with a barbecue smorgasbord.
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« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:47am by muso »  

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Sappho
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #42 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:48am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:35am:
Quote:
Rather God introduced the concept of other gods existing.


Wrong. If anything He ended that concept. The concept was already there. He did not introduce it. He merely acknowledged that the concept existed.


No not wrong. God does not speak in Concepts... He speaks in Truths. So that if God says there are other gods... then there are other gods.

To say otherwise is to deny that god speaks in Truths.

What are you trying to say with this distinction between Truth and Concept?

I think now that you are confusing the Truths of God with the Parables of Jesus. Parables are like concepts, yet not concepts, that speak of truths.

Quote:
Quote:
Where is the abiguity in the text?


The ambiguity is in whether the commend refers to belief or worship (or maybe equates the two), and in whether it implies the existence of other gods, or merely the previous belief in their existence.

You are exploiting that ambiguity and in doing so rejecting both doctrine and a common sense interpretation.


It implies the existence of other gods. We are talking about text from god himself as written in the ten commandments. He is not speaking concepts at his flock. He is speaking absolute truths.
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tallowood
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #43 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:53am
 
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:39am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:18am:
I don't deny Harry Potter as well but he should keep to his own veggies too.



Ok, I can buy that. (I think) If your God should ever come visiting at my place, I won't deny him a nice vegetarian meal, as long as he behaves himself and doesn't start smiting me.

If he wants wine, I can supply a caraffe of fresh water and he's free to do any transmogrification that he pleases.

Otherwise he can go to hell, where he will presumably be served up with a barbecue smorgasbord.


Can I come too? I can bring my own wine from my own grapes.

Is your hell the vegetarian restaurant where they serve grilled veggies? I will not deny that though I prefer them steamed or raw with lemon juice and olive oil.


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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #44 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:54am
 
Sappho wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:48am:
No not wrong. God does not speak in Concepts... He speaks in Truths. So that if God says there are other gods... then there are other gods.


Is a thought not a truth? If he said that just thinking about horizontal folkdancing is committing adultery, is that not a concept?

If he said thou shalt not mentally masticate (sic) on internet forums, is that not also a concept?
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