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Are Christians polytheists? (Read 4929 times)
freediver
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #45 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:56am
 
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So that if God says there are other gods...


But that's just it Sappho. He does not say that. You are deliberately misinterpretting an ambiguity.

Quote:
What are you trying to say with this distinction between Truth and Concept?


A concept is something that people are aware of, maybe even believe in. Thus it is different from the truth. I hope I don't have to explain it any further.

Quote:
It implies the existence of other gods.


No it doesn't.

Quote:
We are talking about text from god himself as written in the ten commandments. He is not speaking concepts at his flock. He is speaking absolute truths.


They are commands, not truths. 'Thou shalt not steal' is a command, not a truth. In fact it is demonstrably false. This is the absurdity of your argument.
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muso
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #46 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:57am
 
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:53am:
muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:39am:
tallowood wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:18am:
I don't deny Harry Potter as well but he should keep to his own veggies too.



Ok, I can buy that. (I think) If your God should ever come visiting at my place, I won't deny him a nice vegetarian meal, as long as he behaves himself and doesn't start smiting me.

If he wants wine, I can supply a caraffe of fresh water and he's free to do any transmogrification that he pleases.

Otherwise he can go to hell, where he will presumably be served up with a barbecue smorgasbord.


Can I come too? I can bring my own wine from my own grapes.

Is your hell the vegetarian restaurant where they serve grilled veggies? I will not deny that though I prefer them steamed or raw with lemon juice and olive oil.




LOL. I think Sprint's idea of an Australian Politics Forum meet is a good one. Maybe some day.
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Sappho
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #47 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:30am
 
Douay Version says "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me."
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/exo020.htm

So god says "other gods" or "strange gods" but does not say "false gods", yet Freediver would treat what god has said as though he means "false gods". Why?

Surely if god meant "false gods" he would say "false gods", being all knowing and all... as He Is!

That would encapsulate the concept of gods past that are false making Him The Only God In Existence.... but he did not do that... did he.

God, being all knowing, claimed there were "other gods" or "strange gods." He was not speaking to a concept, but to truth.  Cool

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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #48 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:35am
 
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God, being all knowing, claimed there were "other gods" or "strange gods."


Wrong. You are confusing your misinterpretation with what was actually written, yet again.
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #49 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:41am
 
Sappho wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:33am:
God never told his flock NOT to believe in other gods. Rather God introduced the concept of other gods existing. From that point, God demanded that none of these Gods are to be held before Him.





The concept of other 'gods' may be indicated within the Bible.....
.....[i.e. 'gods' are spoken of, not being actual Gods.]....

Psalms 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2  How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4  Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5  They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8  Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



In their vanity, men have always imagined that they themselves, are like God.

And indeed, they do have the power to CHOOSE between good or evil.

And this is all tied in with SATAN's trick in the garden.

To play upon man's own vanity.

Genesis 3:5
.....your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.






And in their nature, men are vain 'chancers'.

What action, or desire, will a 'strong' man withhold himself from?

Or is the question actually,
....'Why should he withhold himself??'
....when the sword arm of a man is strong!!


Human history tells us fully about human nature, and about 'real politique'.....

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian


Historically, men have shown that invariably, they will always act in their own interests, if it is indeed within their power.iGetting back to gods....

But elsewhere God seems quite definitive [about other 'gods'].....

Isaiah 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2  Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
3  For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
4  And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
5  One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7  And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8  Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.


Isaiah 45:20
Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21  Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Sappho
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #50 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:47am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:35am:
Quote:
God, being all knowing, claimed there were "other gods" or "strange gods."


Wrong. You are confusing your misinterpretation with what was actually written, yet again.


What kind of debate is that Freediver... Pfft!

No it is you who is wrong Freediver. You are confusing your misinterpretation with what was actually written, yet again.
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freediver
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #51 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:49am
 
Sappho I just don't see any point in a more in depth rebuttal if all you are going by is a deliberate misinterpreation of some of the more ambiguous translations of the commandments. Finding an ambiguity and filling it with whatever you want is hardly a sound argument.
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Classic Liberal
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #52 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:03pm
 
Yadda wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:41am:
Sappho wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:33am:
God never told his flock NOT to believe in other gods. Rather God introduced the concept of other gods existing. From that point, God demanded that none of these Gods are to be held before Him.





The concept of other 'gods' may be indicated within the Bible.....
.....[i.e. 'gods' are spoken of, not being actual Gods.]....

Psalms 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods[/u].
2  How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4  Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5  They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, [u]Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8  Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



In their vanity, men have always imagined that they themselves, are like God.

And indeed, they do have the power to CHOOSE between good or evil.

And this is all tied in with SATAN's trick in the garden.

To play upon man's own vanity.

Genesis 3:5
.....your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.






And in their nature, men are vain 'chancers'.

What action, or desire, will a 'strong' man withhold himself from?

Or is the question actually,
....'Why should he withhold himself??'
....when the sword arm of a man is strong!!


Human history tells us fully about human nature, and about 'real politique'.....

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian


Historically, men have shown that invariably, they will always act in their own interests, if it is indeed within their power.




a better translation is "God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth"


line six is "I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High."

so beware of 16th century protestant bible translations, they translaed teh bible from latin, which had already been translated from hebrew and so things got confused.
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Yadda
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #53 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:25pm
 
Classic Liberal wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:03pm:
a better translation is "God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth"


line six is "I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High."

so beware of 16th century protestant bible translations, they translaed teh bible from latin, which had already been translated from hebrew and so things got confused.






Thank you pender.



So God is the 'head honcho' then [....as the Hebrew scripture seems to reveal things]?
....among the 'gods'?

'gods' being the 'congregation' ['subjects']  of  God?

Or would you suggest that the God [of Israel] may be 'one among equals'?




I'm still confused.

Smiley

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Are Christians polytheists?
Reply #54 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:35am
 
Yadda wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:25pm:
Classic Liberal wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:03pm:
a better translation is "God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth"


line six is "I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High."

so beware of 16th century protestant bible translations, they translaed teh bible from latin, which had already been translated from hebrew and so things got confused.






Thank you pender.



So God is the 'head honcho' then [....as the Hebrew scripture seems to reveal things]?
....among the 'gods'?

'gods' being the 'congregation' ['subjects']  of  God?

Or would you suggest that the God [of Israel] may be 'one among equals'?




I'm still confused.

Smiley



"god standeth in the congregation of god" simply means god stands before his own congregation, imho
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