Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 5:31pm:


This is a case of the boy who cried wolf far too often. There has been far too many 'Palliwood' , bogus accounts of palestinian victimhood.

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 6:31pm:


No doubt.

Israel was also attacked on the day of its birth and the attackss have not abated.

Yet its muslim citizens enjoy greater freedom and opportunities than their coreligionists in any of the muslim majority countries. Palestinians ought to recognise that and ask why they must speend generation after generation as refugees in Muslim countries.

it is easier for a palestinian to become the loyal subject of Elizabeeth II in Australia or Canada than to be that of King Muck or whatever of Jordan or Araby. They were even expelled from Jordan in the 70s for causing to much trouble. And there are no jews in jordan to oppress them.

Only recently, Palestinian 'fighters' sought refugee in Israel from ... er... other Palestinian fighters. They got it, and medical treatment of their gunshot wounds suffered while fighting their muslim Paleestinian brothers in Gaza.

The palestinians act like barbarians and blame israel because israel resists their incessant efforts to - destroy Israel. How inconsiderate of the jews. How racists and islamophobic.

Fatalism comes into it. It is only the Mulism persuasion that can't see its way past blood. Try not to shoot rockets into israel. See what happens.

Soren has the best argument in this thread, IMHO.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:46pm:



By your analogy you are the jew in this country and the Aborigines are the 'palestinians'. Why don't you leave? Why don't you live by your principles?

Except, of course, the jews are the aborigines of Judea, of Israel, not the palestinians. The jews won it at least a millenium before Mohammed appeared. So the muslim claim to Israel is baseless nonsense.
Except according to the reckoning of 'once muslim land, always muslim land'.  And hence the harking back to Andalusia, despite the 500 years since the muslims had to vacate. But theree neever is a possibility of digesting how Allah could side with the infidels there or anywhere else. That can't be Allah's will. Not that conssistent or principled about Allah ccontrolling, willing everything that happens.

The Arabs are the invaders everywhere outside Araby. And thee muslims won everything now muslim in the middle east by war.
Even Araby.
If it's good enough for muslims to claim conquered lands, well, the spanish and the jews won their countries back by war.

Back. Won back - very important.

Lestat wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:39am:



This is as good an example as any of how muslim ideologues will turn the precise word they are guilty of onto those who oppose them.

Terrorist sympathisers -  anyone who is critical of Islamist terrorist.
Islamophobe - anyone who is critical of Muslim attrocities, hatred, mindless killing.
Oppressive - aanyone who iss critical of islamist treatmeent of women.
Undemocratic - anyone who is critical of slamist assault on freedom of concience, speech and press
Racists - annyone who questions the muslim treatment of infidels
Terrorist country - the country thatresists daily terror attacks as a way of life for 60 years.i

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:25pm:



That' right, time to invent things and attribute them to whoever diagress. No-one will notice that you are making them up.

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:17pm:


to be sure, but one must also look at what the birth of Israel meant - which was the dispossession of the indigenous inhabitants (officially called the nakba http://www.alnakba.org/ . I'm not saying this justifies all Palestinian acts- but it's important to look at what happened within context and with perspective.

No indigenous people have ever simply made way for settlers/invaders/conquerors. indigenous australians didn't (those who did believed them not to be settlers, but to be temporary settlers living a nomadic lifestyle much like their own. they did not know they staked claim to the land until later when it became clearer. whereas others who caught on to what was going on would stage various kinds of attacks).

the difference between indigneous australians and indigneous palestinians is that IA did not have the numbers/capability/opporunity and realisation of what was happening, to effectively keep the europeans away

I don't think you can blame the palestinians for fighting back because it is the natural reaction of anyone whose lands are being taken away, whose home is being taken away. does this excuse all action taken in the 60 years since? certainly not. but it does lend towards understanding why people have been fighting for 60 years.

the fact is that those who came into israel/palestine and claimed it as their own had no right to do so, and the original breach of the rights of palestinians is a huge thing.

we need only look at the pain and difficulty that similar situations have caused with other indigenous populations- and these occurred many hundreds of years ago.

one can look at northern ireland. many look at the 'freedom fighters' as heroes who fought against the english rule etc etc- yet when it comes to palestinians they are regarded as terrorists, with no regard for human life and with no legitimate reason to be angry or to feel injustice in the first place. it simply isn't true.

now people look at the palestinians as animals and say that normal people don't act this way- but palestinians aren't living in a normal situation. certainly I do not morally agree with many actions, but I do understand why they have come about. I understand they are a result of pain, as opposed to a result of some inherent barbarism.

there are also other forms of abuse or terrorism apart from blowing up people and buses. such as blocking aid, blocking food, overt violence towards individuals, the oppression of personal freedoms etc etc

there's a very interesting book called 'us and them' by peter manning. he goes to israel and palestine and his observations (as well as factual, referenced materials he has in the book- are quite interesting)

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the situation in Palestine is quite terrible and does cause incredible suffering I agree. but this is not just down to palestinians. the war itself has a huge effect. you may say that the war is only going on because of the palos- on the one hand this is true- israelis would be quite happy not to fight and to simlpy take over the rest of the land. this suits them because it's what they want.

palestinians of course do not want this- they have something to be fighting for and fighting against.

and then you get kids who grow up in this environment- the education system is shot, you have kids without proper schooling, their world is in disarray and it has a huge effect on their mentality. I remember some study about the pictures drawn by palo kids- and they were so dark and sad, it was just terrible.

this is not to say israelis don't suffer- I'm sure they do. but essentially they do live in relative comfort- in comparison to the suffering of the palestinians.

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yes- it's very complex, no black and white in sight

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and yet the palestinians are resisting the effort of the israelis to destroy palestine. which they are quite intent on doing. if I'm to look at injustice here- the original injustice is against the palos

I mean even the UN has condemned the actions of the Israelis- their illegal settlements, the building of separation walls etc

yet people seem to ignore this. people seem happy to refer to the UN when it condemns certain african countries and practices, yet when it condemns australia for human rights abuses- or condemns Israel for human rights abuses and illegal settlements, all of sudden they are dismissed as an uncredible source.

here are some quotes from Israeli soldiers after the shelling of a Palestinian refugee camp and Jenin in 2002

"They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no-one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring down as fast as possible...I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D9. And I didn't see houses falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they [the Palestinians] didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generatinos. If I am sorry for anything it is not tearing the whole camp down."

"On June 5, the Jenin bulldozer unit was awarded a medal for distinction in battle by te IDF. When the world media and aid organisations were allowed in to Jenin to see the slaughter, the respected US group Human Rights Watch found a case for Israel to answer on war crimes charges...the US blocked a well-supported UN Security Council proposal to investigate the incident at Jenin." p.193-4

Us and Them