Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism just another religion ?

athos

Gold Member

Offline

Re-educate barbarians

Posts: 6406
Hong Kong
Gender: male

Is Atheism just another religion ?
Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:50am

Lets see. Theists or believers say that God exists but because they can not scientifically proof that, they have to believe in God’s existence.
On the other hand Atheists say that God does not exist but because they don’t have proof for that they also have to believe in God’s non-existence, the same as believers in his existence.
Isn’t then Atheism just another religion?.
I am asking this question because I noticed that majority of atheists want to present themselves as something special like scientists or something.

Back to top

Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49248 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #1 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:54am Yes. I have noticed that too. Atheists almost always try to paint their views as rational, and those of religious people as irrational. It can get quite funny sometimes. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1194410206
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #2 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:44am

athos wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:50am:

Lets see. Theists or believers say that God exists but because they can not scientifically proof that, they have to believe in God’s existence.
On the other hand Atheists say that God does not exist but because they don’t have proof for that they also have to believe in God’s non-existence, the same as believers in his existence.
Isn’t then Atheism just another religion?.
I am asking this question because I noticed that majority of atheists want to present themselves as something special like scientists or something.

Atheism is just another belief. Science doesn't really come into it, because even the concept of a 'no-frills' Deist God is outside the realms of the application of the scientific method. The scientific method applies only to those things that can be observed or predicted using perception or enhanced perception.

The word religion is normally associated with some kind of devotional activity. The activities of some atheists could be taken as devotional, but it doesn't apply to the general contemporary definition of atheist, which just means "one who doesn't believe in God".

It doesn't work by majority. Even if a few atheists don't actually have a strong commitment to their belief, it negates the concept. By the way, I'd argue that the majority of atheists would rather not even talk about religion. All that you encounter online is probably a vocal (and somewhat embarrassing) minority - the 'eccentrics' who actually want to promote 'atheism'. To me, even the use of the word 'atheism' is a bit strange. I don't happen to believe in God, but I don't have any other baggage that you might term "Atheism". I actually support religions, though I stop short of belief in gods.

In fact if there is any ambiguity, I'd prefer to describe myself as non-religious rather than atheist.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #3 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:51am "Atheism doesn't exist" (c) - AAtheist Is AAtheism just another religion?
Back to top	ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים IP Logged

athos

Gold Member

Offline

Re-educate barbarians

Posts: 6406
Hong Kong
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #4 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 11:46am

muso wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:44am:

athos wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:50am:

Lets see. Theists or believers say that God exists but because they can not scientifically proof that, they have to believe in God’s existence.
On the other hand Atheists say that God does not exist but because they don’t have proof for that they also have to believe in God’s non-existence, the same as believers in his existence.
Isn’t then Atheism just another religion?.
I am asking this question because I noticed that majority of atheists want to present themselves as something special like scientists or something.

Atheism is just another belief. Science doesn't really come into it, because even the concept of a 'no-frills' Deist God is outside the realms of the application of the scientific method. The scientific method applies only to those things that can be observed or predicted using perception or enhanced perception.

The word religion is normally associated with some kind of devotional activity. The activities of some atheists could be taken as devotional, but it doesn't apply to the general contemporary definition of atheist, which just means "one who doesn't believe in God".

It doesn't work by majority. Even if a few atheists don't actually have a strong commitment to their belief, it negates the concept. By the way, I'd argue that the majority of atheists would rather not even talk about religion. All that you encounter online is probably a vocal (and somewhat embarrassing) minority - the 'eccentrics' who actually want to promote 'atheism'. To me, even the use of the word 'atheism' is a bit strange. I don't happen to believe in God, but I don't have any other baggage that you might term "Atheism". I actually support religions, though I stop short of belief in gods.

In fact if there is any ambiguity, I'd prefer to describe myself as non-religious rather than atheist.

Muso
I am imprest with your intellectual honesty because many non believers say that their opinion about God is strictly separated from religion.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 1:01pm by athos »

Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

IP Logged

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #5 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 11:46am tallowood wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:51am: "Atheism doesn't exist" (c) - AAtheist Is AAtheism just another religion? LOL - you're incorrigible. I admire people who have a faith.
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged

northy

New Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 49
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #6 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 5:08pm

muso wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:44am:

The word religion is normally associated with some kind of devotional activity. The activities of some atheists could be taken as devotional, but it doesn't apply to the general contemporary definition of atheist, which just means "one who doesn't believe in God".

It doesn't work by majority. Even if a few atheists don't actually have a strong commitment to their belief, it negates the concept. By the way, I'd argue that the majority of atheists would rather not even talk about religion. All that you encounter online is probably a vocal (and somewhat embarrassing) minority - the 'eccentrics' who actually want to promote 'atheism'. To me, even the use of the word 'atheism' is a bit strange. I don't happen to believe in God, but I don't have any other baggage that you might term "Atheism". I actually support religions, though I stop short of belief in gods.

In fact if there is any ambiguity, I'd prefer to describe myself as non-religious rather than atheist.

Well said Muso.

The group of "non religious" that you decribe is without doubt the biggest group of people the religious tend to denigrate as atheists.

Like you, I don't tend to label myself as anything and don't realy give it much thought other than being fairly shure I don't fit into any particular camp.
Those of us that are campless, are happily able to function without a need for a crutch or in the more extreme dogmas, a straight jacket to give life meaning and purpose.

I consider myself fortunate.

Cheers

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #7 - Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 7:56am

northy wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 5:08pm:

Well said Muso.

The group of "non religious" that you decribe is without doubt the biggest group of people the religious tend to denigrate as atheists.

Like you, I don't tend to label myself as anything and don't realy give it much thought other than being fairly shure I don't fit into any particular camp.
Those of us that are campless, are happily able to function without a need for a crutch or in the more extreme dogmas, a straight jacket to give life meaning and purpose.

I consider myself fortunate.

Cheers

Good to see more people like me coming out of the woodwork. Some (but not all) religious people tend to denigrate us with their own definition of atheist using a long list of stereotypical attributes. I think I've heard them all.

I don't like the straitjacket or crutch analogy. We all have our crutches. Christians might say we all have our crosses to bear. We're all God's people (LOL) and we all have our own ways of making sense of reality. I don't think I'm any different or better than anybody else in that respect.

Most Christians (and Muslims) on this forum are probably very decent people, although some get carried away on the self righteous indignation bit. I genuinely like religion (note - I did not use the cliché "I don't mind religion"), and I also get frustrated with arrogance and xenophobia.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 8:02am by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #8 - Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 3:22pm

There's little wonder that non-believers (for want of a better term) get annoyed with the categories that religious people try to place them in.

Lack of conscience, evil, faithless, unenlightened, in need of saving and doomed, are some of the terms I've heard. And quite frankly, I get sick of it.

As far as I'm concerned, I've looked at the concepts and I think they're based on a load of mumbo jumbo. I don't believe it, and that's all.

Religion is a club of which I'm not a member. This doesn't automatically grant me membership to another club called atheism.

I wonder if religious people believe that the easter bunny will come hippity hopping through their door at easter time, ..or if Santa will come ho ho hoeing down their chimney at Christmas? Does this make them non-believers if they don't believe this will happen?
Could they then be labelled Asantas and Abunnies?

But oh no.. the God concept is so different because the religious challenge the non-religious to prove otherwise when the burden of proof should be upon them if they want to speak to people about an instruction book authored by God.i

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #9 - Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 4:08pm

Amadd wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 3:22pm:

I wonder if religious people believe that the easter bunny will come hippity hopping through their door at easter time, ..or if Santa will come ho ho hoeing down their chimney at Christmas? Does this make them non-believers if they don't believe this will happen?
Could they then be labelled Asantas and Abunnies?

But oh no.. the God concept is so different because the religious challenge the non-religious to prove otherwise when the burden of proof should be upon them if they want to speak to people about an instruction book authored by God.

I can actually understand that point of view. God is a kind of special case, especially if you believe that he created the Universe in the Abrahamic sense. The evidence for God is often stated to be the Universe (look around).

God is actually quite an elegant solution to the fact that things work, we think therefore we are and all the other amazing things about the universe. In contrast, the concept that a universe that can have sentient observers must have all the ducks in a row in the first place certainly works, but it's kind of untidy having all these millions of other malfunctioning universes hanging around in other dimensional corners etc.

As I said, the God of the Deists is an elegant enough solution, but not one that I happen to believe in.

In point of fact, I don't know how the universe came to be as it is, and I doubt if I'll ever know. I can't speak for anybody else though Wink

In my life there are some things within my control, some things outside my control and quite a few things which are within my sphere of influence.

Those things that are outside my control or sphere of influence are the things that I concern myself with least. After all, there are lots of other things that I can control, so I'll stick with what I know.

The human brain is very plastic. You can build a virtual world (we all have to in order to survive) and even a virtual God in there. Once you've done that, you can almost forget about deconstructing it. Why would you bother? It explains everything neatly.

So that in a nutshell explains my position on religion.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Kytro

Gold Member

Offline

Blasphemy: a victimless
crime

Posts: 3409
Adelaide
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #10 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:17am

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:54am:

Yes. I have noticed that too. Atheists almost always try to paint their views as rational, and those of religious people as irrational. It can get quite funny sometimes.

Religious beliefs are almost always irrational, but then again so are many non-religious beliefs.

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #11 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:26am

Kytro wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:17am:

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:54am:

Yes. I have noticed that too. Atheists almost always try to paint their views as rational, and those of religious people as irrational. It can get quite funny sometimes.

Religious beliefs are almost always irrational, but then again so are many non-religious beliefs.

I prefer to say non-scientific. 'Irrational' has connotations of insanity. What - a large proportion of the world running around being irrational? I don't think so.

Why be inflammatory? I don't think that the statement "religion is not science" would raise any eyebrows, but that's what we are really trying to say here.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Kytro

Gold Member

Offline

Blasphemy: a victimless
crime

Posts: 3409
Adelaide
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #12 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 11:07am

muso wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:26am:

I prefer to say non-scientific. 'Irrational' has connotations of insanity. What - a large proportion of the world running around being irrational? I don't think so.

Well I don't think that irrational people are insane, but I do think that a large proportion of people do run around being irrational.

* They do not challenge the ideas they hold. It is not reasonable to assume you have got everything right, but people often think they do.

* They have unsubstantiated beliefs supported by "faith" which by it's very nature is not reasonable or rational - it requires the abdication of thought.

* They tend to affected by cognitive bias' such as the confirmation effect.

* They often hold contradictory positions.

Everyone does these things to some point or another, but being able to recognise it, and attempt to compensate is not something everyone does. Sometimes people celebrate ignorance as a strength.

muso wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:26am:

Why be inflammatory? I don't think that the statement "religion is not science" would raise any eyebrows, but that's what we are really trying to say here.

That goes without saying. The reason for being inflammatory is to at least attempt to get people to think about the beliefs they hold - and because it is a valid point.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49248 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #13 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 11:10am Saying it is not science misses the point. History, maths etc are not science either. The irrationality of humans is well established in psychology. The fact that some people take offense is not a good reason to use an inappropriate, misleading term.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #14 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 12:02pm Newton and Einstein were not atheists. They were scientists.
Back to top	ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים IP Logged