Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism just another religion ?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #120 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:06am

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:11am:

Is there a distinction between non-theistic and atheistic? Both espouse a lack of belief in deities.

I've always maintained that most terms referring to religion and 'atheism' are indistinct and subject to various interpretations. The number of varied dictionary definitions that exist attest to that.

I agree that they could be considered synonyms but atheism has come to mean more than just the rejection of the existence of a deity. In common usage it also includes the rejection of dogmatic religion whether or not that religion includes as its central tenet the existence of a god or gods.

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tallowood

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #121 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:14am

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:58am:

So you don't recognise that non-religious atheists exist, and you infer that 'atheism' is a religious belief but never a 'non-religious belief'.

If that's your definition, I'll explain that (in common with most people who would consider that the term 'atheist' applies to them) happen to be non-religious.

Now if you reply to that, you're acknowledging my existence, and I'd hate to have you compromise your belief system.

(Of course if you didn't understand the Mao Zedong post, that might be a little too hard for you to understand)

Wouldn't "non religious" atheists by any chance deny existence of God?
Did Mao deny existence of god(s)?
Wasn't Mao atheist and mass murderer?

What do you not understand about my reply to "Mao post"?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #122 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:21am

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:14am:

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:58am:

So you don't recognise that non-religious atheists exist, and you infer that 'atheism' is a religious belief but never a 'non-religious belief'.

If that's your definition, I'll explain that (in common with most people who would consider that the term 'atheist' applies to them) happen to be non-religious.

Now if you reply to that, you're acknowledging my existence, and I'd hate to have you compromise your belief system.

(Of course if you didn't understand the Mao Zedong post, that might be a little too hard for you to understand)

Wouldn't "non religious" atheists by any chance deny existence of God?
Did Mao deny existence of god(s)?
Wasn't Mao atheist and mass murderer?

What do you not understand about my reply to "Mao post"?

As Mao once said to the Dalai Lama, "Religion is poison".

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #123 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:14pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:06am:

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:11am:

Is there a distinction between non-theistic and atheistic? Both espouse a lack of belief in deities.

I've always maintained that most terms referring to religion and 'atheism' are indistinct and subject to various interpretations. The number of varied dictionary definitions that exist attest to that.

I agree that they could be considered synonyms but atheism has come to mean more than just the rejection of the existence of a deity. In common usage it also includes the rejection of dogmatic religion whether or not that religion includes as its central tenet the existence of a god or gods.

What central tenet?

It's just a definition - it just means a lack of belief in deities. It's just a simple 'Not' Gate with an output of 1. It doesn't even have peripheral tenets let alone a central tenet.

In the definition that most non religious people use, existence is an irrelevant complication. The Sun or the Moon obviously exist, but an Atheist wouldn't believe in them as gods, whereas some theists would.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #124 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:16pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:21am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:14am:

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:58am:

So you don't recognise that non-religious atheists exist, and you infer that 'atheism' is a religious belief but never a 'non-religious belief'.

If that's your definition, I'll explain that (in common with most people who would consider that the term 'atheist' applies to them) happen to be non-religious.

Now if you reply to that, you're acknowledging my existence, and I'd hate to have you compromise your belief system.

(Of course if you didn't understand the Mao Zedong post, that might be a little too hard for you to understand)

Wouldn't "non religious" atheists by any chance deny existence of God?
Did Mao deny existence of god(s)?
Wasn't Mao atheist and mass murderer?

What do you not understand about my reply to "Mao post"?

As Mao once said to the Dalai Lama, "Religion is poison".

In that case he was obviously talking about Buddhism, which doesn't necessarily involve deities.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #125 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:22pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:14am:

Wouldn't "non religious" atheists by any chance deny existence of God?
Did Mao deny existence of god(s)?
Wasn't Mao atheist and mass murderer?

1. No. The word deny is at issue. Remember how silly the conversation became when we talked about you denying Ganesh?

2. Again no. Theism was never part of his culture.
3. Atheist - yes, but FD might strictly consider him an Agnostic, because the tradition that he rejected was Buddhism, not theism.
Mass murderer - that's my understanding.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #126 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:23pm

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:21am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:14am:

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:58am:

So you don't recognise that non-religious atheists exist, and you infer that 'atheism' is a religious belief but never a 'non-religious belief'.

If that's your definition, I'll explain that (in common with most people who would consider that the term 'atheist' applies to them) happen to be non-religious.

Now if you reply to that, you're acknowledging my existence, and I'd hate to have you compromise your belief system.

(Of course if you didn't understand the Mao Zedong post, that might be a little too hard for you to understand)

Wouldn't "non religious" atheists by any chance deny existence of God?
Did Mao deny existence of god(s)?
Wasn't Mao atheist and mass murderer?

What do you not understand about my reply to "Mao post"?

As Mao once said to the Dalai Lama, "Religion is poison".

In that case he was obviously talking about Buddhism, which doesn't necessarily involve deities.

He was. Mao was an atheist by the common usage of the term, which by that includes his rejection of all religion. In that context he was more than just non-theistic.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #127 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 5:49pm

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:14pm:

What central tenet?

It's just a definition - it just means a lack of belief in deities. It's just a simple 'Not' Gate with an output of 1. It doesn't even have peripheral tenets let alone a central tenet.

In the definition that most non religious people use, existence is an irrelevant complication. The Sun or the Moon obviously exist, but an Atheist wouldn't believe in them as gods, whereas some theists would.

The term atheism has come to mean more than simply a lack of belief in deities, it now also means a rejection of dogmatic religion. When someone declares themselves an atheist, it would not occur to anyone to ask if perhaps they were a Buddhist... In the common use of the term their non-religious status would also have been declared. In other words, I believe atheists would not consider themselves religious.

Existence (or non-existence) is precisely the point of atheism. Atheism is the denial of the existence of god(s) (and also rejection of the need for a dogmatic religion to define a super-reality).

Yes the sun and moon exist... as physical celestial bodies. An atheist would argue that while these entities exist, they are not manifestations of gods because gods do not exist.

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« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:04pm by NorthOfNorth »

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mozzaok

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #128 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:25pm

Well put Helian, I could happily go along with your definition.
I dislike the wishy washy fence sitting versions where people are afraid to confront or offend.
If you can't offend religion, then what purpose does it serve?

As for tallo's ludicrous attempts to link atheism to despotism, well they are plain dumb.

If you are looking for tenuous links, then I think you will find that all the despots ate food, so obviously that means eating cause violence. Roll Eyes

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tallowood

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #129 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:55pm

mozzaok wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:25pm:

Well put Helian, I could happily go along with your definition.
I dislike the wishy washy fence sitting versions where people are afraid to confront or offend.
If you can't offend religion, then what purpose does it serve?

As for tallo's ludicrous attempts to link atheism to despotism, well they are plain dumb.

If you are looking for tenuous links, then I think you will find that all the despots ate food, so obviously that means eating cause violence. Roll Eyes

Did I offend your religion moz that you go on righteous tangent like this?

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #130 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm It's important to understand that religion and conviction are not necessarily the same thing.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #131 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:39pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm: It's important to understand that religion and conviction are not necessarily the same thing. Jesus was convicted by Roman Law.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #132 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:56pm tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:39pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm: It's important to understand that religion and conviction are not necessarily the same thing. Jesus was convicted by Roman Law. It's important to understand the meaning of homonym.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #133 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:28am What is more important? 1 to understand that religion and conviction are not necessarily the same thing OR 2 to understand the meaning of homonym
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #134 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:33am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 5:49pm:

The term atheism has come to mean more than simply a lack of belief in deities, it now also means a rejection of dogmatic religion. When someone declares themselves an atheist, it would not occur to anyone to ask if perhaps they were a Buddhist... In the common use of the term their non-religious status would also have been declared. In other words, I believe atheists would not consider themselves religious.

Existence (or non-existence) is precisely the point of atheism. Atheism is the denial of the existence of god(s) (and also rejection of the need for a dogmatic religion to define a super-reality).

Yes the sun and moon exist... as physical celestial bodies. An atheist would argue that while these entities exist, they are not manifestations of gods because gods do not exist.

Everybody seems to define 'Atheist' differently. As far as I am concerned, it is the natural state to be atheist. Children are born atheist.

I have also argued before that it is a tiny minority of Atheists who would 'reject dogmatic religion'

I don't have any problem with your conviction, but I just don't think it's as widespread as you seem to think it is. You're attempting to narrow the definition of atheist, and for some reason align with the current fundamentalist Christian misconception of the term.

The prefix a- should be applied in the same way that other words with this prefix are treated. 'Amoral' simply means without morals. A-theist
means without God or gods. It boils down to a lack of belief in deities.

By all means stick with your own personal version of atheism, but please recognise that it is not necessary for the definition.

I simply do not believe in deities. If I do not 'reject dogmatic religion' does that make me any less of an 'atheist'? I don't think so.

I do happen to reject arrogance and meat, but that has nothing to do with the atheist bit.

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