Forget about atheism for sec....



If God, really is God...

If [as the Bible suggests] God is [a] spirit, and that men have bodies composed of earth...
.....what is God's purpose, in our 'placement' here, what is God's 'interest' in us, as individuals?






I suspect that i am a rather weird Bible student.

I believe that we [mankind] are those 'angels' spoken of here in Revelation....

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



I believe that the redemption that is spoken of throughout out Bible, speaks of our spirit[ual] redemption [of our being given a chance of a return to God's presence], because of God's mercy, and because of God's recognition of our deception by SATAN.

But that is just what i suppose.


Revelation 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Isaiah 44:22
I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
23  Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.



I believe that the Bible is a book full of stories, of which, many are recognisable as parables, explaining God's plan, for our redemption.

I believe that 'Israel' is [Bible] 'code' for God's ppl, for those who have [self] chosen, to be the redeemed from the earth.




Dictionary...
parable = = a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson.


Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16  But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Psalms 25:12
What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.


Psalms 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.



Hmmm...

The secret of the LORD is with them that fear God.

Throughout the Bible is the suggestion that those on this earth, who do wicked and evil, are ppl who have no fear of God.

i.e. They have no conscience ???

muso wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 8:10am:







muso,

We are in agreement.

I knew that would happen, one day.




p.s.
I'm holding my breathe, for tomorrow too.

Amadd wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 1:04pm:





Amadd,

Death is what many men fear.

So, the philosophy of many,
..."Eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow we die!"

And most men do try to sate their desires, because [self] pleasure is their 'God'.
....many times, without conscience.

But it does seem to be an empty, and unsatisfying life, for very many.

Have they actually taken an incorrect path [in life]?





You say there is nothing [there] to fear.

Amadd,

Look at this world, look at the place where the hearts of men [living such lives as you seem to endorse], have brought us.

If i were you, i would be afraid.

I would be very afraid.

But i am not you.

My fear of God, is mixed with my joy, at his righteousness.


+++++++


Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:


Proverbs 8:32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33  Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34  Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35  For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36  But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Amadd wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 11:20pm:



Amadd,

My God, as i perceive him, has created an 'environment' where we reveal ourselves.

My God, as i perceive him, is truly just and merciful.

We place too much emphasis on what God has 'done' [i.e. what he 'allows'], but we miss the obvious.

This current world is what we [mankind] have created through our choices.

Q.
Does God allow this?

A.
Yes. [from my perspective]

Q.
Is God unjust to allow us to commit evil?

A.
Better to make our 'mistakes' here, than in the spirit world.


We are all spiritual beings [i believe], and we come to this physical existence specifically [i believe], to exercise the 'power' of choice [given to each of us, by God],
....in this physical existence.

And in this life, by our choices, we have an 'opportunity' to demonstrate, that we understand the consequences of our choices.

Choice is a mental power, a thought power,
....a spiritual power.

Here, in this 'reality', here on this little planet, our choices have no form, until we express them, physically.

We are 'going to school' here [i believe].

And [i believe that] we come here, to learn, and to come to understand the consequences of 'expressing' our choices.



Quote:


Amadd,

That is a good point, with which i agree.

Personally, i believe that our purpose in being here, is one of learning about ourselves, and learning about our nature.

Self knowledge is a high aim, which we should seek.
....but not vainly.

We should aspire to know ourselves.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:.....




Quote:


Amadd,

You may not believe it [i know many cannot], but the Bible will reveal the spirit of God to us, if we read it.

I promise you, this is the TRUTH.

The contents, the stories, and the knowledge which the Bible contains, is somehow intrinsically 'joined' with mankind.

Somehow, the Bible can speak to the heart of a man.
....or rather, it is the spirit of God, which will speak to your heart.



Quote:


Man is too vain, too greedy, to ruthless, when left to his own 'devices'.

Man must seek himself, in God, if he will succeed, in achieving his potential.

If you don't believe this, just look at man in this world.




Quote:


Amadd,

I assure you i don't know anything special.

I'm just like you, like others.

I'm seeking truth.

You say you, "...want some proof."

I can't prove anything, to anyone.

Only our own experience in this life, can be our 'proof'.

You have to seek God [TRUTH], yourself.

But most ppl believe in the god of 'common sense'.
....i.e. they continue to eat from the tree [of good and evil] in the garden.

Relying on their own wisdom, and vanity.



[/quote]
And IMO, it's also not correct to be using words like "intention", because that's a human characteristic.
"God's truth" may be a better way of putting it.

Then the question would be, do you embrace the truth, or do you try to hide it for personal reasons?
IMO there's no such thing as a book of total truth, just books of opiions.
Common sense will eventually sort the wheat from the chaff.
[/quote]

Amadd,

Believe that if you will.

I believe that you are mistaken.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Psalms 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalms 146:3  Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5  Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Amadd wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 1:15am:




Hi Amadd,

What does it matter if God is male or female?
.....except to a feminist perhaps???


And isn't that also vanity?

The very distinctive separation between male an female [character], does seem to be important here, due to our 'nature', so to speak.

But there seems to be less importance on this distinction between sexes, in the spirit realm.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.





Quote:


That would really be for the Vatican to answer.

But i don't see a lot of sense, in how organised religion [esp. Christianity] has conducted itself.

Organised religion has always disappointed me.

To me, organised religion has always seemed to be more about internal church politics, and 'greasy poles',
....than meditation on the nature of God, or a search for TRUTH.

Dictionary,
greasy pole = = the difficult route to the top of a profession.



Quote:


Amadd,

It could be argued, that [not always, but] many of the terrible things which happen to people, are the result of their own actions, or choices.

Consider, if you have a tooth cavity, why do you go to the dentist, when you have a fair idea the visit is going to involve pain?

Are dentists 'ruthless' persons, who derive some secret and perverse joy, from inflicting pain upon their patients?

At the risk of seeming flippant, all of these things [in our lives] are in any case, unimportant, and will not last very long.


Psalms 103:13
Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14  For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15  As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16  For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.


I can't prove it, but i believe that we all come here merely to experience life, and to then make choices, based on our experiences [so far].

Is God cruel, to expose us to sometimes painful [human] experiences?

It may seem so.

In 200 years [if there is another 200 years of man] will any of what has happened to you today, matter to you at all?

How?

Won't you be dead?

Aren't our lives, and all of the passions we feel [i.e. our feelings of self importance], aren't they just more vanity?

Consider, try to recall every passion you felt as a child, while growing up, learning about becoming a person in our society.

Growing up, [if you were like me] you were concerned about your appearance in front of your peers, about the clothes others chose for you to wear, about how you would cope with each new social experience [i.e. 1st day at school, 1st day at high school, etc].

Think about the real passion and anticipation you once felt, in your longing for your 1st 'grown up' party dress, or your 1st computer game, or your desire for your very own, 1st mobile phone, or when you wanted [to buy] your 1st car.

Now STOP.

Now imagine, that you didn't grow up in the 1st world, but you were a child growing up in a small, 3rd world village.

Your family are poor, your daily chores are to work in a vegetable garden, and find firewood for your family, and to oversee your younger siblings.

You only have one set of clothes, no shoes, and you are lucky if you have 2 meals a day.

Now STOP again.

Whichever environment you grew up in [1st or 3rd world], you still would have experienced many of the same human passions, and hopes, and disappointments of life.

But many of the cultural 'triggers' to these human passions [experiences] may have been literally, worlds apart.

If there is a God, is God cruel, to give us the experience, the pain, and the disappointments, of our life?

Again, at the risk of seeming flippant, all of these things are largely unimportant, in themselves [i believe].

Er, 200 years.

It is what we learn, and what we take with us [if you can believe that], which is important [in my opinion].

[This discussion has reminded me of that Godfathers song.... Birth, School, Work, Death
....have a listen to the lyrics if you can access it.
   ]


Ecclesiastes 2:12
And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.
13  Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
14  The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
15  Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
16  For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17  Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.


MORE.....

CONTINUED.....


Amadd wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 1:15am:





Amadd,

I can't promise, but if i can find time, i will try to have at these.

I'm 200km from my capital city, and on [21 kb/s] dialup, and 9 min's of YOUTUBE video, takes me 2+ hours to D/L,
....so i will not D/L something unless it looks interesting [to me!].

There is something undefinable.

Christians tend to personify it and call it God. Buddhists talk of Karma - a kind of cosmic law of cause and effect. You can call it the Universe or nature or even a set of numerical constants that define something about the way things are, but as soon as you attach a label, it devalues it to a system of preconceptions, semantics and prejudices.

Taoists don't dare define it, although the Tao has been translated as the way, or just how things are, or the natural harmony of the universe. All words create ripples in the Tao that just add confusion, and hamper true understanding.

Something very cool happened last night. People went outside and looked at the night sky. Now in the past, I have had some of my greatest insights while observing the night sky, including meteor showers. Pick a secluded bush location without lights or noises and you suddenly become aware of being just a part of the cosmos.

It's a strange feeling - very peaceful with little ripples of emotions such as awe accompanied with an almost unworldly clarity of thought. You lose track of time and things that are otherwise inscrutable just click into place. The grand scale and emptiness of the cosmos becomes  something that is a comfort, not a threat, because you become part of that greater whole.

- and no - I don't do drugs. My drug is life.

So I don't know whether to call it God or Gaia, but even to express it in words is to cheapen the experience. Sacred books and their authors through the years have probably tried to capture that which is wild and magnificent.

I've seen Elk and deer on moutainsides in remote parts of Canada, I've heard Pitjinjara people speaking in excited tones in their native language about one rocky landmark or another in the middle of the Tanami desert. I've seen wild whales plying their way through the ocean.

I can read about it of course, but spirituality is to sacred books as wild deer on a mountain top is to 25 year old canned venison. It's a bit stale and non vital.

Somehow there is something missing.

muso wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 2:23pm:





muso,

You said, '...there is something missing.'


I can see why it is, but it does sadden me.


"......There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
HAMLET - William Shakespeare


muso, never give up on TRUTH [searching for it], and i am sure you'll find, what is missing.