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If God, is God... (Read 5757 times)
locutius
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #15 - Dec 3rd, 2008 at 12:52pm
 
Muso, I love Taoism.

Before enlightenment, gathering water chopping wood.
After enlightenment, gathering water chopping wood.

There is too much talking and noise. (not to be confused with good conversation). I love sitting on the verandah at 3am in the dark. Its all so beautiful and quiet. The dog going up the road to visit his girlfriend. the possums with the kids on the back, a resiliant city frog from somewhere down the corner of the yard.

Yadda, I think muso was talking about something being missing in the translation from feeling to writting about it. I could be wrong. To me there is nothing missing in the witnessing.
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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.
 
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muso
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #16 - Dec 3rd, 2008 at 2:56pm
 
locutius wrote on Dec 3rd, 2008 at 12:52pm:
Yadda, I think muso was talking about something being missing in the translation from feeling to writting about it. I could be wrong. To me there is nothing missing in the witnessing.


Sort of. We all experience truth, but some are too blind (or blinded) to see it. You can't get spirituality out of a book.
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Amadd
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #17 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:04am
 
Yes Yadda, Mozz explained the clips very well, and it's not really worth downloading them with dialup.
The purpose was only to display some different perceptions of essentially the same event.
..and I could've found a better one for the Christianity perception.

Obviously the bible has been of great service to you, and I'm happy that it has achieved it's aim for you.

It's always a bit hard to discuss matters like religions, because one the one hand, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to say to stop believing in what you're believing in if it's important to you and works for you, but on the other hand, my God forces me to say what I think.

I think (or believe) that religious opinions quite often say pretty much the same thing as non-religious opinions, but in a different way.
I don't believe in a "one sock fits all" religion, and I'm more in agreeance that words alone cannot explain a personal human experience without also explaing all other previous experiences, which would put it into a better perspective.
If a picture paints a thousand words, then an experience must paint at least a trillion.
It's not for me to tell anybody what thier opinions and experiences mean to them, and I get pretty pissed when anybody tries to do the same to me.
But I suppose it's just human nature (for survival purposes) to try to make people believe that we know the path to some holy kingdom, when in fact, nobody does.
Professing this knowledge and usurping control of people's personal Gods may make life easier on earth for some.




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muso
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #18 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 7:59am
 
Amadd wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:04am:
Obviously the bible has been of great service to you, and I'm happy that it has achieved it's aim for you.

It's always a bit hard to discuss matters like religions, because on the one hand, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to say to stop believing in what you're believing in if it's important to you and works for you, but on the other hand, my God forces me to say what I think.



Well said ! I concur with this 100%. We all have our personal 'God(s)'. The only difference is that I understand, believe and feel mine to be a totally internal function of my brain, while Yadda understands, believes and feels his to be part of the Christian tradition and accordingly attributes creation of the universe and all the rest.  

All people are different. (LOL - and all people are the same too) If it works for you, don't mess with it. The last thing I'd want to do is to make someone stop believing.

If we could all adopt that attitude towards the beliefs of others in a spirit of humility, we'd live in a better, more tolerant world.

It's not religion I have trouble with - it's intolerance.
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« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008 at 8:09am by muso »  

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Yadda
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #19 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:54am
 
muso wrote on Dec 3rd, 2008 at 2:56pm:
locutius wrote on Dec 3rd, 2008 at 12:52pm:
Yadda, I think muso was talking about something being missing in the translation from feeling to writting about it. I could be wrong. To me there is nothing missing in the witnessing.


Sort of. We all experience truth, but some are too blind (or blinded) to see it. You can't get spirituality out of a book.


.....or out of a 'can of beans'.


muso,

Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book,
.....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset?


Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening?

Wink



++++++


Ecclesiastes 2:12
And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.
13  Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
14  The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
15  Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
16  For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17  Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #20 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:45am
 
Amadd wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:04am:
.......It's always a bit hard to discuss matters like religions, because one the one hand, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to say to stop believing in what you're believing in if it's important to you and works for you, but on the other hand, my God forces me to say what I think.



Amadd,

I remember a 'meditation' which i came across some years ago, where someone suggested, that in this life, we don't strictly do those things that we really 'want' to do.

But that we always do the things which we 'must' do [because of the way our internal 'programming' works].

So that in our actions, whether we are 'good', or 'bad', we are often very much 'compelled', in what we do.

Its a worrying concept!
Grin

But i think we have to also include the part our conscience plays, in our life decisions, into such contemplation.

And indeed we should consider the influence our conscience has, upon our ['motivating'] internal 'programming'?







Quote:
I think (or believe) that religious opinions quite often say pretty much the same thing as non-religious opinions, but in a different way.
I don't believe in a "one sock fits all" religion, and I'm more in agreeance that words alone cannot explain a personal human experience without also explaing all other previous experiences, which would put it into a better perspective.
If a picture paints a thousand words, then an experience must paint at least a trillion.
It's not for me to tell anybody what thier opinions and experiences mean to them, and I get pretty pissed when anybody tries to do the same to me.
But I suppose it's just human nature (for survival purposes) to try to make people believe that we know the path to some holy kingdom, when in fact, nobody does.
Professing this knowledge and usurping control of people's personal Gods may make life easier on earth for some.



As the 1970's TV show, 'MONKEY', said, in its opening theme....

"....We are all on a journey, as long as life."

I believe that we should be willing to listen to, and learn from, the experiences of others, but that we should always seek to choose our life path, for ourselves.

I don't believe at all, that enlightenment comes through constraint [or from any 'guru'!], but through the freedom and liberty to experience, and contemplate life's mysteries [and our mistakes], for ourselves.

I believe that we should always travel a path, that we ourselves choose [for ourselves].




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #21 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:40am
 
Yadda wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:54am:
muso,

Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book,
.....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset?


Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening?

Wink


You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you.

In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart.

The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #22 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:54am
 
muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:40am:
You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you.

In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart.

The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.

True. Although the language of science is seldom more inspirational than the poetry of faith.
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Conviction is the art of being certain
 
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Yadda
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #23 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 5:14pm
 
muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:40am:
Yadda wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:54am:
muso,

Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book,
.....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset?


Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening?

Wink


You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you.

In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart.

The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.





Hi muso,

I think we may have explored this point previously....

'ARE THERE SPIRITS IN YOUR HEART?'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225068179/0#0




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Amadd
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #24 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:49pm
 
+ Quote:
remember a 'meditation' which i came across some years ago, where someone suggested, that in this life, we don't strictly do those things that we really 'want' to do.

But that we always do the things which we 'must' do [because of the way our internal 'programming' works].

So that in our actions, whether we are 'good', or 'bad', we are often very much 'compelled', in what we do.

Its a worrying concept!


I don't really see it as a "worrying concept" any more than a bird is born with wings so it may fly.
We are born with the ability to shape the future to a certain extent, and that is our wings.




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muso
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #25 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 6:20am
 
Yadda wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 5:14pm:
muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:40am:
Yadda wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:54am:
muso,

Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book,
.....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset?


Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening?

Wink


You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you.

In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart.

The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.





Hi muso,

I think we may have explored this point previously....

'ARE THERE SPIRITS IN YOUR HEART?'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225068179/0#0



You might have expounded it, but I chose not to comment at the time because I didn't want to be drawn into a meaningless faith based conversation. It was too loaded with a pseudoscientific religious agenda.

Quote:
There is a 'brain' in the heart...
Medical scientists back in the 1970's discovered there are small clusters of neural cells ['brain' cells], in the heart.


Well yes, but there are nerve cells all over the body. The cognitive centre of the body is in the brain. Let's not reinvent neuroscience.

The article itself is more like a National Enquirer "here there be monsters" sensationalist piece designed to sell newspapers. I don't see the value in discussing it any further.

Let's keep science and religion separate. The Bible isn't exactly a scientific publication, and it was never intended to be.

The use of the term heart is just poetic. You can relax. It's not a central tenet of your religion. It's just misinterpreted. The more you latch on to unimportant aspects like that, the less credibility you'll end up with.
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Yadda
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #26 - Dec 6th, 2008 at 2:07pm
 
muso wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 6:20am:
Quote:
There is a 'brain' in the heart...
Medical scientists back in the 1970's discovered there are small clusters of neural cells ['brain' cells], in the heart.


Well yes, but there are nerve cells all over the body. The cognitive centre of the body is in the brain. Let's not reinvent neuroscience.

The article itself is more like a National Enquirer "here there be monsters" sensationalist piece designed to sell newspapers. I don't see the value in discussing it any further.

Let's keep science and religion separate. The Bible isn't exactly a scientific publication, and it was never intended to be.

The use of the term heart is just poetic. You can relax. It's not a central tenet of your religion. It's just misinterpreted. The more you latch on to unimportant aspects like that, the less credibility you'll end up with.




muso,

Science has acknowledged that ppl who have heart transplants, have often 'expressed' the life interests, and 'tastes', of their heart donors.

That is a fact.

If as you suggest, the cognitive centre of the body is in the brain [and only the brain], how can it be, that these occurrences are confirmed [the transfer of 'expressed' life interests, and 'tastes', of heart donors.]?


Dictionary,
cognition = = the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge through thought, experience, and the senses.


muso,

Isn't it more reasonable [and humble] for us to acknowledge, that while we humans may seem to be 'clever' little monkeys, we still [in reality] know very little about ourselves, and our universe?





2 Timothy 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.



Hmmmm....

".....Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Tongue


1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #27 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 11:17am
 
Yadda wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 2:07pm:
muso,

Science has acknowledged that ppl who have heart transplants, have often 'expressed' the life interests, and 'tastes', of their heart donors.

That is a fact.

If as you suggest, the cognitive centre of the body is in the brain [and only the brain], how can it be, that these occurrences are confirmed [the transfer of 'expressed' life interests, and 'tastes', of heart donors.]?



LOL. Science has acknowledged that people who have neurological disorders often claim to be Napolean.

That is a fact.

If as you suggest,  Napolean is dead, how can you explain these scientifically based claims?  Grin

Yadda - Let's make a deal - you stick to the "my God is better than your God" Biblical quotations and others will do the science and logical arguments. When you're stuck fast in the swamp, it's better not to go further into it.  Wink

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. " Martin Luther.
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Yadda
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #28 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 3:41pm
 
muso wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 11:17am:
Yadda wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 2:07pm:
muso,

Science has acknowledged that ppl who have heart transplants, have often 'expressed' the life interests, and 'tastes', of their heart donors.

That is a fact.

If as you suggest, the cognitive centre of the body is in the brain [and only the brain], how can it be, that these occurrences are confirmed [the transfer of 'expressed' life interests, and 'tastes', of heart donors.]?



LOL. Science has acknowledged that people who have neurological disorders often claim to be Napoleon.

That is a fact.



Well scientific studies have shown that these events are real.

And i don't recall seeing any participant claiming, they had received Napoleon's heart.

Tongue





Quote:
If as you suggest,  Napolean is dead, how can you explain these scientifically based claims?  Grin

Yadda - Let's make a deal - you stick to the "my God is better than your God" Biblical quotations and others will do the science and logical arguments. When you're stuck fast in the swamp, it's better not to go further into it.  Wink

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. " Martin Luther.





p.s.

My God, is bigger than your God!

So there!

Cool






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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: If God, is God...
Reply #29 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:00pm
 
Yadda wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 3:41pm:
Well scientific studies have shown that these events are real.




The problem with the chronically religious is that they never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

From your original link:

But most medical professionals - and even many organ- transplant recipients - find such accounts somewhat fantastical.

"The heart is a pump and no more - it is not capable of emotional transfer," said Patti Cook, 68, who got her donor heart at UMC in 1989, and is president of the New Heart Society, a statewide support group. "I've seen this stuff on TV, but I think some people need their 15 minutes of fame. I don't think the idea holds credibility."


About 5 years ago, I was told that unless I started exercising and eating correctly, I'd have a high risk of contracting Cardio vascular disease in the following 5 years.

I was never interested in sport or healthy eating until that particular Nexus in my life.

Now do you suppose that a heart transplant is a rather traumatic life changing experience? - and do you suppose that most people would resign themselves to changing their lifestyles significantly as a result?
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