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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Killing Nov 30^th, 2008 at 1:41am Please show me, where under various religious protocol and philosophical/spiritual whatevers, you are allowed to kill, hurt, rob, steal etc. All's fair in love and war, right? I just need some guidance here. Under what circumstances can you hurt, under what circumstances can you kill, and under what circumstances can you take possession of property/goods.
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muso

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Re: Killing
Reply #1 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 6:30am

If you read my post on the Atheist thread, you'll see how several chapters of Deuteronomy give numerous examples of the Israelites committing total genocide (men women and children) because they believe that God is on their side.

So the overall message is that on one hand it's "Thou shalt not kill", however on the other hand as long as they belong to a different religion and you believe that God is on your side, it's OK to kill as long as you kill every last one of them and destroy all their groves and graven images. In the name of the Lord of course.

It's plain that the Israelites took such pride that they recorded these Bronze Age mass murders in their sacred texts and the later Christians thought that they were pretty cool life examples to leave in there. At the same time they expunged the Bible of embarrassing Books such as Enoch which actually explored 'God' face to face and included some amazing transcendental and otherworldly experiences. Enoch obviously failed the test for inclusion, presumably because of its low body count, and was consequently relegated to the enigmatic world of the apocryphal.

The detail on Deuteronomy is paraphrased of course.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Killing Reply #2 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 7:52am Don't confuse your testaments and religions muso...
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tallowood

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Re: Killing
Reply #3 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:19am

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 6:30am:

If you read my post on the Atheist thread, you'll see how several chapters of Deuteronomy give numerous examples of the Israelites committing total genocide (men women and children) because they believe that God is on their side.
....

I've read your post on the Atheist thread and I've pointed out to you that at the time when all that was happening it was acceptable modus operandi while mid 20th century when atheists did genocide it was exception not the rule.

Also according to your quotations victors invoked God after it was over not before so it looks like you confused cause and effect.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Killing Reply #4 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:26am Grendel wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 7:52am: Don't confuse your testaments and religions muso... So are you saying that the OT is not relevant to Christianity and that Yadda was incorrect in quoting another part of Deuteronomy to make a point?
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muso

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Re: Killing
Reply #5 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:32am

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:19am:

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 6:30am:

If you read my post on the Atheist thread, you'll see how several chapters of Deuteronomy give numerous examples of the Israelites committing total genocide (men women and children) because they believe that God is on their side.
....

I've read your post on the Atheist thread and I've pointed out to you that at the time when all that was happening it was acceptable modus operandi while mid 20th century when atheists did genocide it was exception not the rule.

Also according to your quotations victors invoked God after it was over not before so it looks like you confused cause and effect.

What counts here is its inclusion in the religion's sacred book in the 21st Century.

I think I understand your last sentence. It's like Osama Bin Laden saying "Allahu Akbar!" after hearing of the 911 attacks as opposed to before. So that somehow makes it ok, and justifies its inclusion in a sacred text?

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tallowood

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Re: Killing
Reply #6 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:07am

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:32am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:19am:

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 6:30am:

If you read my post on the Atheist thread, you'll see how several chapters of Deuteronomy give numerous examples of the Israelites committing total genocide (men women and children) because they believe that God is on their side.
....

I've read your post on the Atheist thread and I've pointed out to you that at the time when all that was happening it was acceptable modus operandi while mid 20th century when atheists did genocide it was exception not the rule.

Also according to your quotations victors invoked God after it was over not before so it looks like you confused cause and effect.

What counts here is its inclusion in the religion's sacred book in the 21st Century.

I think I understand your last sentence. It's like Osama Bin Laden saying "Allahu Akbar!" after hearing of the 911 attacks as opposed to before. So that somehow makes it ok, and justifies its inclusion in a sacred text?

Muso, there is nothing sacred any more, not even PUB, TAB, TEST CRICKET, RL FINALS, ANZAC DAY, SANTA CLAUSE, ENVIRONMENT, ETC., ETC., ETC..

I think you will agree that the Atheism is to blame for THAT.

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Grendel

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Re: Killing
Reply #7 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:24am

Muso... If you think I read everyone of Yaddas or anyone elses posts here you've got rocks in your head.

The OT is the Jewish "bible" is is basically a history and is treated as such in Christianity. The NT... is about Christ upon which... funnily enough... Christianity is based... upon whose teachings it is based.

The OT says... an eye for an eye... the NT preaches forgiveness and tolerance... turn the other cheek etc.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Killing
Reply #8 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:26am

Easel -
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.
If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them.
And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.
And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.
Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

Luke 6: 27 - 36

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Matthew 6:14,15

I hope that helps. Jesus's words read really nicely, but are VERY hard to do.
From my experience, his advice is amazingly effective.

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muso

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Re: Killing
Reply #9 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:57am

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:07am:

I think you will agree that the Atheism is to blame for THAT.

For disrespect of the sacred? Maybe terrorism is to blame for that. Maybe drugs and rock and roll are responsible for that. Maybe it's some chemical they add to Big Macs or Coca Cola.

Maybe a religious upbringing that suppresses and penalises a questioning attitude is responsible for it.

As far as Atheism is concerned, I've never heard of any Atheist inspired terrorist groups similar to Al Qaeda, the IRA, the Tamil Tigers etc.

Religion-inspired terrorism has appeared on the fringes of all major (and some minor) religions including Christianity, Judaism, and even Buddhism, as well as Islam of course.

But batty and disrespectful as he may be, I've never heard old Richard Dawkins say, "Come on chappies, let's strap on a suicide bomb or two and show those deluded religious bastards that we'll jolly well blow them up"

North Korea is a possible exception, but the main religion there seems to be the worship of Kim Jong.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Killing Reply #10 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:00pm Do you think that Atheism is probably more of a symptom than a cause?
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easel

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Re: Killing
Reply #11 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:17pm

Sprint, doesn't it also say in the Bible something like (not an exact quote), "If you have no sword sell your cloak and buy a sword" or something?

Also, are Christians allowed to fight? Are they allowed to go to war? Wasn't Jesus meant to be a fulfillment of the law? And he only told us to love thy neighbour and love God? Therefore, can seizure of property, fighting, killing etc, be justified in any way?

Would a true Christian never fight anything and go the Ghandi route?

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6007	Re: Killing Reply #12 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:23pm muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:00pm: Do you think that Atheism is probably more of a symptom than a cause? Just like other religions
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tallowood

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Re: Killing
Reply #13 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:29pm

muso wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 11:57am:

...

Maybe a religious upbringing that suppresses and penalises a questioning attitude is responsible for it.

As far as Atheism is concerned, I've never heard of any Atheist inspired terrorist groups similar to Al Qaeda, the IRA, the Tamil Tigers etc.

Religion-inspired terrorism has appeared on the fringes of all major (and some minor) religions including Christianity, Judaism, and even Buddhism, as well as Islam of course.

But batty and disrespectful as he may be, I've never heard old Richard Dawkins say, "Come on chappies, let's strap on a suicide bomb or two and show those deluded religious bastards that we'll jolly well blow them up"

North Korea is a possible exception, but the main religion there seems to be the worship of Kim Jong.

Atheists Mao, Stalin and Polpot were inspiring mass murders and it is just as good that R Dawkins is not in a position of power and even many atheists take him for a joker.

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easel

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Re: Killing
Reply #14 - Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:54pm

Is self defence ok? For example, if you are in a situation you did not initiate, can you defend yourself, the whole do unto others thing, I would hope if someone else was in a situation they did not start they would defend themselves.

If you have a gun and someone else has a gun, and they are going to shoot you, is it ok to get in first?

If someone robs you, can you go reclaim your possessions plus compensation?

If someone bashes your girlfriend, can you go give them a flogging?

Where do we draw the line? What can you do and what can't you do?

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