Australian Politics Forum - A Question of Faith.

NorthOfNorth

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #15 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:39am

mozzaok wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:21am:

Well she never seemed particularly religious to me, after all, she practised the antithesis of normal religious behaviour, she did not just preach and pray, she got down and actually got stuck in to actually helping.

Yes. The difference between actually practising the religion as opposed to empty-headed religiosity.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40763 Gender:	Re: A Question of Faith. Reply #16 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:55am In support of the noble truths : "Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Romans 5:3-5 Course, when suffering it does never seem "noble"
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: A Question of Faith. Reply #17 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 1:27pm No struggle without suffering, No challenge without struggle, No value without challenge, No meaning without value. The price of meaning is the willingness to suffer.
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locutius

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #18 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 1:56pm

I meant to ask this for a week now but this seems a good place to ask. Last week, Wednesday night at about 8.30 pm on Radio National they had a dialogue by a academic that was a believer and he was talking about belief vs materialism etc. I could only listen briefly before I got roused on about keeping people waiting. Did anyone here it, do they know the program or how to get a podcast.

Interestingly enough he took an interesting line similar to the one I quoted about Descartes earlier that day.

Quote:

I think it was Descartes that came up with an argument that I thought was the coolest of all and really appealed to me. It sounds good but is purely Metaphysical, and goes something like this. (Forgive me but it has been at least 15 years since I came across it)

"We are imperfect beings that inhabit an imperfect world, and yet we can concieve of a quality called perfection. That image is like a residue of the divine touch on everything. It allows us to know God'.

Something like that anyway.

Intreguing arguments and cosmically appealling, but with no impirical substance which from what I briefly heard, is what he was driving at.

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« Last Edit: Dec 4^th, 2008 at 2:02pm by locutius »

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muso

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #19 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 2:01pm

locutius wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 1:56pm:

I meant to ask this for a week now but this seems a good place to ask. Last week, Wednesday night at about 8.30 pm on Radio National they had a dialogue by a academic that was a believer and he was talking about belief vs materialism etc. I could only listen briefly before I got roused on about keeping people waiting. Did anyone here it, do they know the program or how to get a podcast.

Interestingly enough he took an interesting line similar to the one I quoted about Descartes earlier that day.

That would be the Religion Report. Here's a link for the podcast or transcript.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/default.htm

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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: A Question of Faith. Reply #20 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 2:03pm Mate thanks heaps. Thank god for ABC and Radio National.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #21 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 8:00pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 7:33am:

Amadd wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2008 at 5:59pm:

Maybe it was this atheistic side of her which enabled her to do such important selfless work here on earth Shocked

Well, that is another intriguing part of her story... she can be claimed by multiple religious and non-religious groups. Mahayanic Buddhists could claim that she was a bodhisattva - an enlightened one who, out of compassion for other beings, refuses Nirvana and returns to the world to relieve suffering. Also Buddhism, being non-theistic, doesn't have to explain a non-responsive god - the silence she experienced would be entirely in keeping with Buddhist teachings.

A great spiritual peer to Teresa who would have understood her dogged determination in the face of interminable doubt was Mahatma Ghandi, whose personal motivating affirmation was "strive on without hope of success nor fear of failure".

Another would be the Dalai Lama who defined the primary point of religion as being the sincere practice of compassion towards others.

If all great spiritual leaders are essentially in agreement with each other, then the result of one's religious or spiritual expressions, however diverse they may be, should be the same.

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NorthOfNorth

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A Paradox at the heart of Australian secularism
Reply #22 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 8:43pm

muso wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 2:01pm:

That would be the Religion Report. Here's a link for the podcast or transcript.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/default.htm

When the Atheist Foundation of Australia wanted to place signs on buses advocating atheism (not criticising religion), they were refused…

From the Religion Report :

Quote:

David Rutledge: You've approached APN Outdoor, the company that looks after advertising on buses with these slogans one after the other. Have they given any reason why they don't like the wording?

David Nicholls: It has taken about three weeks to get any sort of answer at all. The end conversation I had was I asked why we were refused, and my answer to that was 'Well we'll have to refer this to our legal department' and the chappie hung up. Nearly immediately after that, he rang back with a message saying, 'Listen, this is all finished, we're not putting the signs on'.

It appears we may be conflicted by our embrace of secularism and perhaps we as a culture have deep misgivings about our apparent overt rejection of religiosity.

We are inclined to most faithfully follow cultural trends occurring in the United States and yet in this instance it appears we have withheld our acceptance of all things American. Over there (or at least in Washington) “buses are already trundling around with a Christmas message from the American Humanist Association: 'Why believe in a god? Just be good, for goodness' sake'.”.

Why is it that in this most secular of societies we hesitate to allow overt expression of a blatant cultural trend almost as if it's a dirty joke – one which we share only between trusted friends or under the cover of anonymity via internet forums?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: A Question of Faith. Reply #23 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 9:12pm Western secularism is probably the best expresion of the Christian ideal so far. The overtly, militantly secularist, propagandist, politicised anti-religious tenor of some is a misunderstanding and a zealous over-shouting. Yet they are tolerated. If that's not christian charity - what is?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #24 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 10:44pm

Soren wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 9:12pm:

Western secularism is probably the best expresion of the Christian ideal so far.

The overtly, militantly secularist, propagandist, politicised anti-religious tenor of some is a misunderstanding and a zealous over-shouting.

Yet they are tolerated. If that's not christian charity - what is?

Agreed. I believe that Christianity will ultimately morph into something more like that defined by the American Episcopalian Bishop Jack Spong. One where the Jesus myths will be quietly put aside and its theology will be exclusively defined by its doctrine of faith, hope and charity (love) - or (even better) redefined as something more like conviction (incorporating faith and hope), courage (the personal fortitude to stand up for what is morally right) and compassion (empathy for the human condition).

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Calanen

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #25 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 10:55pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 10:44pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 9:12pm:

Western secularism is probably the best expresion of the Christian ideal so far.

The overtly, militantly secularist, propagandist, politicised anti-religious tenor of some is a misunderstanding and a zealous over-shouting.

Yet they are tolerated. If that's not christian charity - what is?

Agreed. I believe that Christianity will ultimately morph into something more like that defined by the American Episcopalian Bishop Jack Spong. One where the Jesus myths will be quietly put aside and its theology will be exclusively defined by its doctrine of faith, hope and charity (love) - or (even better) redefined as something more like conviction (incorporating faith and hope), courage (the personal fortitude to stand up for what is morally right) and compassion (empathy for the human condition).

I'm an atheist, so I think all the stuff you believe is bunk.

Putting that to one side, I see you as allies against the global jihad. Along with Hindus, Sikhs and Christians and Jews.

If you guys dont wake up and help us stop the global jihadi push, there wont be secularism, there wont be jesus, there wont be christianity. There wont be anything except Islamic rule. And the clock is at 10 to midnight for the whole world.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #26 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:17pm

Calanen wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 10:55pm:

I'm an atheist, so I think all the stuff you believe is bunk.

Putting that to one side, I see you as allies against the global jihad. Along with Hindus, Sikhs and Christians and Jews.

If you guys dont wake up and help us stop the global jihadi push, there wont be secularism, there wont be jesus, there wont be christianity. There wont be anything except Islamic rule. And the clock is at 10 to midnight for the whole world.

Well, I am a secularist and hold no belief in the myth of Jesus or Buddha. However, I believe the ideals of Christianity and Buddhism (2 religions I know enough of to form an opinion about them) are worthwhile and universal.

But I also accept that religion in one form or another will be with us forever as I believe that the need for faith is innate and, while it can be suppressed or diverted, it cannot be eliminated.

My feeling is that many atheists take issue with the myths of religion as opposed to its message. Of course to the religious the founding stories are not myths, they are truths which is where the issue of religiosity becomes problematic to non-believers.

A "religion" that laid out its universal moral imperatives without the need for a metaphysical entity (be that god, gods, super-beings or god-cum-human), I believe that many atheists would become "believers" in that they could uncouple the multiple meanings of atheist to mean non-belief in god(s) or metaphysical entities and maintain a belief in "religion".

Imagine a religion that had as its heroes only those real people who lived exemplary or extraordinary lives (such as Teresa of Calcutta) by living its message as opposed to vacuous and self-aggrandising religiosity.

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40763 Gender:	Re: A Question of Faith. Reply #27 - Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:40pm helian - as a spiritual person I will always support and protect an athiest/secularist who voices their opinion. Esp when it is with a bit of wit !!! It'ld be entirely unspiritual to attempt to stifle that opinion, wouldn't it ??
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #28 - Dec 5^th, 2008 at 6:15am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:40pm:

helian - as a spiritual person I will always support and protect an athiest/secularist who voices their opinion.

Esp when it is with a bit of wit !!!

It'ld be entirely unspiritual to attempt to stifle that opinion, wouldn't it ??

I agree.

No doubt those who saw the movie ‘Ghandi’ would remember the advice he gave to a devout Hindu, during the tragedy of partition. Ghandi is on a hunger protest.

Quote:

"Here! Eat! Eat! I'm going to hell - but not with your death on my soul!" says the Hindu.
"Only God decides who goes to hell." replies Ghandi.
“I'm going to Hell! I killed a child! I smashed his head against a wall.”
”Why?”
”Because they killed my son! The Muslims killed my son!”
”I know a way out of Hell. Find a child, a child whose mother and father have been killed and raise him as your own. Only be sure that he is a Muslim and that you raise him as one.”

The strongest proof of a commitment to a philosophy or theology of compassion is measured by the depth of you’re capacity to show compassion and find common ground when you could more easily succumb to bitterness and despair.

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Yadda

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #29 - Dec 6^th, 2008 at 3:27pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 6:15am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:40pm:

helian - as a spiritual person I will always support and protect an athiest/secularist who voices their opinion.

Esp when it is with a bit of wit !!!

It'ld be entirely unspiritual to attempt to stifle that opinion, wouldn't it ??

I agree.

No doubt those who saw the movie ‘Ghandi’ would remember the advice he gave to a devout Hindu, during the tragedy of partition. Ghandi is on a hunger protest.

Quote:

"Here! Eat! Eat! I'm going to hell - but not with your death on my soul!" says the Hindu.
"Only God decides who goes to hell." replies Ghandi.
“I'm going to Hell! I killed a child! I smashed his head against a wall.”
”Why?”
”Because they killed my son! The Muslims killed my son!”
”I know a way out of Hell. Find a child, a child whose mother and father have been killed and raise him as your own. Only be sure that he is a Muslim and that you raise him as one.”

The strongest proof of a commitment to a philosophy or theology of compassion is measured by the depth of you’re capacity to show compassion and find common ground when you could more easily succumb to bitterness and despair.

helian,

Those words attributed to Ghandi [in the film], are high ideals indeed.

I'm going to hell i think.
....unless God forgives me.

Huh

Yadda, struggling, to understand my nature.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

helian,

Should we embrace [spiritual] darkness, out of seeking to express kindness, in our nature?

What about [spiritual] light and [spiritual] darkness?

Is it a moral act to give a lamb to a wolf, out of kindness, because the wolf seems lonely?

Should we surrender that which is innocent, to that which we know is evil?

Should evil and innocence have equivalency in our personal reality?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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