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A Question of Faith. (Read 9362 times)
Sprintcyclist
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #45 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 3:26pm
 
helian - hahahhaah, are you joking ??

Quote:
Islam, like all religious expression, does not stand up to close scrutiny. Religious legends and stories are all hopelessly flawed with inconsistencies and absurdities.

So what did the muslims say/do when you say that to them ??

Oh, you have not done that !!
A heart the size of a peanut.

In the muzzie caht room I did not say anything untoward about moh. Some people there I agreed with, some I disagreed with.
I did not abuse anyone, despite getting atacked constantly.

Some posters there were quite nice. A guy called dish in particular.
As is in the real world, the leaders are intolerant.


Muso - I have not seen cat lovers call for world domination.
Tell me when it happens.

have a good afternoon both
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #46 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 3:30pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 9:37am:
I have to agree with Helian on the issue of the Dalai Lama's interpretation, and expression of his views of Islam, and certainly, I reject the opinion that he is not telling the truth on this subject.

Seemingly contradictorally, I also agree with Yadda's interpretation of Islam.

So we have two diametrically opposing views on the subject and both are true and accurate, just dependant on which iteration of the religion we focus on.

As Helian says, we should assume that the Dalai Lama has formed his opinions, from discussion with Islamic scholars, on what is the true interpretation of Islam, whilst Yadda and people like myself, gather our ideas from media reports of Islamist extremism, and it's effective hijacking of the muslim ummah into a much more violent and extremist interpretation of what is taught in the Koran.

Islam is very much at the crossroad, and the state of flux is contibuting to a perception of fear and mistrust of it, amongst the broader community.

In this environment it certainly does no harm for some to point out, that like all religions, it has very strong messages of peace and love as part of it's philosophy, and we should be supporting those from the Islamic community who choose to promote those elements, rather than the messages of hatred and oppression that we see from the extremist elements.

We cannot afford to let those voices of hate drown out others who seek to champion Islam's good points.






mozzaok,

As a meditation on TRUTH, and lies, and self deception, i recommend these 3 YOUTUBE presentations to you.
They feature Robert Spencer, of Jihad Watch [and a co-debater].
.....[the last 2 are the best!!]


Islam - Threat or Not - Pt 01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PdJnYJc1bk

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdfDAnN7qeU

#3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gGHHUowk-0







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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #47 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 3:48pm
 
I like Robert Spencer. He's a guru.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #48 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:04pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 3:26pm:
helian - hahahhaah, are you joking ??

Quote:
Islam, like all religious expression, does not stand up to close scrutiny. Religious legends and stories are all hopelessly flawed with inconsistencies and absurdities.

So what did the muslims say/do when you say that to them ??

Oh, you have not done that !!
A heart the size of a peanut.

In the muzzie caht room I did not say anything untoward about moh. Some people there I agreed with, some I disagreed with.
I did not abuse anyone, despite getting atacked constantly.

Some posters there were quite nice. A guy called dish in particular.
As is in the real world, the leaders are intolerant.

have a good afternoon both

Now what possible point would there be to debate someone on their faith? It is what one believes despite lack of evidence. If I believe that Mohammed received the Koran directly from God and read it despite being illiterate, then I do. If I don’t, then I don’t.

Oh, you have done that?
An ego the size of a house.

I have seen the many snide and sneering remarks you have made or encouraged towards Muslims and Islam in this forum. I read how you ask loaded questions (i.e. on Love : “so islam controls people how they are to love each other ?”) that are designed to accuse rather than to inquire with respect.

I believe this forum lost an opportunity to seek dialogue with Muslims which naïvely I expected to find enlightened practising Christians fostering, as fellow believers in faith. What I read was mostly hate fuelled rants on how evil Islam and all Muslims are, and from the very people who themselves believe in absurdities and who would just as easily condemn entire cultures to the fires of hell for their deeply held non-Christian beliefs.

I now don’t trust that Christians desire any kind of dialogue with Muslims because I believe that they are still embroiled in an ancient battle, the prize of which is to feed on the minds of seekers of religious truth. Put another way, I believe many Christians are in a turf war with Muslims. If that is the case, empathy towards, respect for and dialogue with Muslims would be anathema to them.

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« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:17pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #49 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:10pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:04pm:
I now don’t trust that Christians desire any kind of dialogue with Muslims because I believe that they are still embroiled in an ancient battle, the prize of which is to feed on the minds of seekers of religious truth. Put another way, I believe many Christians are in a turf war with Muslims. If that is the case, empathy towards, respect for and dialogue with Muslims would be anathema to them.



Well said, Helian.
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...
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #50 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:15pm
 
Yadda,

You seem to believe you are privy to ultimate truth (perhaps because a pastor has told you that Christians are in that privileged position). If all Muslims believed they had a right to murder non Muslims, there should be bodies piled up in the streets should there not?

I hope as a Christian you have abandoned your home and family to follow Jesus. Hopefully you have kids to abandon as that would make the sacrifice greater. I hope (if your parents were also Christians) that they abandoned you to follow Jesus. Would that not be following the letter of Christian scripture?
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #51 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:19pm
 
Didn't Jesus preach tolerance of other religions, but said he was the only way in to heaven?

So Christians aren't really supposed to foster hate, right? That whole love thy neighbour shindig.
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #52 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:32pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:15pm:
Yadda,

You seem to believe you are privy to ultimate truth (perhaps because a pastor has told you that Christians are in that privileged position). If all Muslims believed they had a right to murder non Muslims, there should be bodies piled up in the streets should there not?

I hope as a Christian you have abandoned your home and family to follow Jesus. Hopefully you have kids to abandon as that would make the sacrifice greater. I hope (if your parents were also Christians) that they abandoned you to follow Jesus. Would that not be following the letter of Christian scripture?



helian,

I live in, and am influenced by the world.

I try to live a moral life, but i am flesh, and weak, and i certainly have faults.

I search for my God, and i thank him, for his righteousness, and his mercy.

I don't claim to know any 'ultimate truth', but i search for TRUTH.
....because i know that where TRUTH is, God is there also.



Proverbs 3:1
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2  For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3  Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4  So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #53 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:53pm
 
easel wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:19pm:
Didn't Jesus preach tolerance of other religions, but said he was the only way in to heaven?

So Christians aren't really supposed to foster hate, right? That whole love thy neighbour shindig.



Easel,

Jesus said....

Matthew 5:38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Matthew 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.




I am not perfect.

I am not that 'strong', to walk perfectly.

Will my God forgive me?

I believe that that, depends upon what is in my heart.



Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.





I trust God, because i know that he is righteous, and merciful.

And what more can i ask,
....except that God is righteous, in his judgement of me???

If God's judgement of me is righteous, why can i complain?




Psalms 7:17
I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.


Psalms 25:7
Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
8  Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9  The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10  All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11  For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12  What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #54 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 6:00pm
 
Quote:
39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil


What's your interpretation of that?

Also, there aren't many people who think they are evil, no matter what they do. Everyone thinks they are acting in the right. Or else they are sociopaths.
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #55 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 6:32pm
 
Yadda wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:32pm:
helian,
I don't claim to know any 'ultimate truth', but i search for TRUTH.
....because i know that where TRUTH is, God is there also.

You mean you believe that where TRUTH is, God is there also.

Otherwise you'd already be privy to ultimate truth.
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #56 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 6:55pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 6:32pm:
Yadda wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:32pm:
helian,
I don't claim to know any 'ultimate truth', but i search for TRUTH.
....because i know that where TRUTH is, God is there also.

You mean you believe that where TRUTH is, God is there also.

Otherwise you'd already be privy to ultimate truth.



helian,

No.

I said it right.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #57 - Dec 8th, 2008 at 12:01pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 5:15pm:
Yadda,

You seem to believe you are privy to ultimate truth (perhaps because a pastor has told you that Christians are in that privileged position). If all Muslims believed they had a right to murder non Muslims, there should be bodies piled up in the streets should there not?

I hope as a Christian you have abandoned your home and family to follow Jesus. Hopefully you have kids to abandon as that would make the sacrifice greater. I hope (if your parents were also Christians) that they abandoned you to follow Jesus. Would that not be following the letter of Christian scripture?




helian,

I can across this critique of a book.

The book is 'The Muslim Next Door', written by a Stanford graduate, Sumbul Ali-Karamali.

The author of the book is an American muslim woman.



On the one hand, there is a muslim woman who in her book is seeking to reassure ppl who know very little about ISLAM.

On the other hand the critic, 'Kamala', presents some information, and questions, which the author of the book did not address.

As i say, the page link [below] is a critique of the book, and it is critical of the 'impression' the book tries to convey to non-muslims, about ISLAM.

You may, or may not, be prepared to view and assess such information.

I hope that you will.




Revuse.....


"Her book, The Muslim Next Door: The Qur'an, the Media, and that Veil thing, is in part an effort to avert a "clash of ignorances" because the "Western perception of Islam has become an evil caricature of reality." As she writes, "moderate Muslims try to chip away a great wall of media misinformation."

The book aims to "clear away the misconceptions about Islam," explaining why these "tall tales" continue to "flourish" and "persist."
Ali-Karamali seems well suited to write such a book. A Muslim of Indian descent, she has a law degree from the University of California, Davis in addition to her undergraduate degree from Stanford, and a graduate degree in Islamic law from the University of London. Yet she's all-American: she grew up in California, she's married, she's a mother, and she practiced corporate law in San Francisco.

The book has received praise from some big names.

Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl, Professor of Islamic Law at the UCLA School of Law, calls it "one of the best three books published on the Islamic faith in the English language since the tragedy of 9/11." It's "refreshing in its honesty" and "consistently reliable." (A web site run by El Fadl's "Students, Supporters, and Friends" describes him as "the most important intellectual in Islam and Islamic law today." Among other honors, he was "appointed by President George W. Bush as a commissioner on the US Commission on International Religious Freedom.")

Reza Aslan, the "internationally acclaimed" author of No God but God and guest on the Jon Stewart show, calls her "beautiful book" a "corrective" against the "misinformation about Islam" that "most Americans are bombarded with."

....The book's back cover asks, "What if you could sit down at a kitchen table with an American Muslim mom and ask anything you wanted about her faith and religious practice?" In the book's acknowledgments, she writes: "And to everyone who ever asked me a well-intentioned question about Islam: this book is a result of your desire to cross cultures." "

http://revuse.wetpaint.com/page/Ten+Questions+for+the+Muslim+Next+Door?t=anon





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #58 - Dec 13th, 2008 at 12:57pm
 
And now a word from Arthur Schopenhauer, one of the world’s most pessimistic philosophers, who rejected the existence of a loving god. Who embraced with zeal the first of Buddhism’s first noble truth that all life is suffering.

Quote:
As a reliable compass for orientating yourself in life nothing is more useful than to accustom yourself to regarding this world as a place of atonement, a sort of penal colony. When you have done this you will order your expectations of life according to the nature of things and no longer regard the calamities, sufferings, torments and miseries of life as something irregular and not to be expected but will find them entirely in order, well knowing that each of us is here being punished for his existence and each in his own particular way.

This outlook will enable us to view the so-called imperfections of the majority of men, i.e., their moral and intellectual shortcomings and the facial appearance resulting there from, without surprise and certainly without indignation: for we shall always bear in mind where we are and consequently regard every man first and foremost as a being who exists only as a consequence of his culpability and whose life is an expiation of the crime of being born.

The conviction that the world, and therefore man too, is something which really ought not to exist is in fact calculated to instil in us indulgence towards one another: for what can be expected of beings placed in such a situation as we are? From this point of view one might indeed consider that the appropriate form of address between man and man ought to be, not monsieur, sir, but fellow sufferer, compagnon de miseres. However strange this may sound it corresponds to the nature of the case, makes us see other men in a true light and reminds us of what are the most necessary of all things: tolerance, patience, forbearance and compassion, which each of us needs and which each of us therefore owes.


The great irony of his tone is that although it rejects the notion of a compassionate god, it is also in itself perhaps a powerful argument for the need to live by the very ideals which theologies of compassion have arrogated to themselves.
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Re: A Question of Faith.
Reply #59 - Dec 13th, 2008 at 1:00pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Dec 13th, 2008 at 10:56am:
He seems to very much embrace the christian idea of original sin, Helian.

That extract seemed to have far greater parallels to christian philosophy than any buddhist philosophy I have read.

Many christians focus much more on the "wrathful" god, than the "loving" god.

And focussed most particularly on condemnation of others as opposed to themselves for whom god then manifests as a being of mercy.

Schopenhauer suggests no divine release from suffering (as he considers whatever driving principle there is in the universe to be essentially a malignant evil).

He perceives life as a travesty from which there can be no divine redemption at all, least of all manifested as a supernatural reward for a noble life with more life.

If one sees a god in his machine, it is one of incalculable depravity (and what of theology if in fact the god factor is evil in design?). To alleviate this suffering, Schopenhauer suggests one should cultivate a deep sense of civility towards others (inasmuch as we need it ourselves, we should offer it towards others) without the need, expectation or belief that by doing so we are executing the will of a compassionate god.
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« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2008 at 1:24pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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