Australian Politics Forum - Did this child deserve to die?

PointDextrous New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25 There	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #105 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 3:57pm I want to deviate a moment on this debate since my last post on last page. It makes a difference to certain debates knowing who is whom. I wonder how many defenders of the State shooting are BabyBoomers; furthermore, I challenge those to own up. I am GenX. Anybody else?????
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48867 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #106 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 3:59pm I discourage people from making this personal. You should be able to criticise someone's opinion without resorting to ad hominems.
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PointDextrous New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25 There	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #107 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:02pm Thats non-acedemic, bias and aborts demographic analysis. Guilt implied thusly.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48867 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #108 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:08pm If you think that your experience somehow makes you better qualified to grasp this issue, perhaps you should just explain, rather than expecting others to offer themselves up to your assumptions about age.
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PointDextrous

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #109 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:29pm

Thats like saying inexperience is a pre-qualifier for not getting a job.

A standard, decades long Baby Boomer oxymoronic system of exclusion.

Let them stand for themselves, if they have the 'skill'; otherwise they may speak freely (I presume) in their defence if they hereso reside.

But to refine the point a little;

I would not put to much store in what a BB has to say anymore. They are out of touch; even if they assert they are so imbued with exestential talent, and this the preserve of an exclusive work place or some grand life experience of which some might lorde others.

Chanting "skills" over decades has produced little of the same, only a repeat of the folly.

Skills shortage, dumbing down, call it wha t you will, its all the same. BB's and their stuff are fading, and there is nothing to fill the intellectual void, only copy-cat syndrome, and Mr Machismo of Unions Inc.

The free spirit tries hard, but without enough ladders to go round, finds the only rung to grab, is the one immediately available. Occasionally, one misses and falls, or is pushed, or is slapped off the ladder.

Dont expect BBGens to get on board with pluralcy of spirit, nor indeed of oppurtunity; confinement within a tight context of the State is a feature of that generation.

The juvenile in question certainly had his rights as espoused by the Charter; even if he attempted to throw them away.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48867 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #110 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:33pm Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it is the 'old timers' who have lost touch? Your post seems to be a collection of vaguely connected generalisations, lacking in justification. I'm glad no-one here offered themselves up for that sort of 'analysis'.
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mantra

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #111 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:34pm

Quote:

It makes a difference to certain debates knowing who is whom. I wonder how many defenders of the State shooting are BabyBoomers; furthermore, I challenge those to own up.

I am GenX.

Anybody else?????

I'm a baby boomer - but I'm not defending the state shooting. I can imagine if that had happened to my son at that age and how distressing it would have been. He was a very angry boy at 15. He didn't pick up a knife or fight with the police - but he did react very angrily under the slightest provocation and punched a few boys a little bit too hard.

It is an age of turbulent hormones and confusion. This boy was prone to fits of anger, but my firm belief is that this situation could have been handled differently - not having a round of bullets from 3 guns pumped into him. He wasn't Rasputin.

People can make all the excuses they want to justify this murder, but if he was completely out of control - he wouldn't have stopped to pat a dog. I don't believe 2 lots of pepper spray were used on him either.

All the males who believe the police did the right thing - think back to when you were 15 and how turbulent your emotions were at that age. You might have got into some dicy situations, even arrested - but no one should expect to be killed.

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PointDextrous

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #112 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:40pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:33pm:

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it is the 'old timers' who have lost touch? Your post seems to be a collection of vaguely connected generalisations, lacking in justification. I'm glad no-one here offered themselves up for that sort of 'analysis'.

Thats a generalisation; BBs' implies a specific generation, "old timers" can go beyond the generational markers. "War Timers" maybe.

I use 25 years as a benchmark, and include 3-5 years either side of center as definers, depending on the topic.

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freediver

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #113 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:41pm

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but if he was completely out of control - he wouldn't have stopped to pat a dog

Not true. A moment of lucidity hardly cancels out his other actions. If he was not completely out of control, he wouldn't have stolen two knives. He wouldn't have threatened to kill people with them. He wouldn't have tried to stab an occupied vehicle with them. He would have come to his senses when he got pepper sprayed. Honestly, how crazy do you have to be for pepper spray to have no effect? He wouldn't have have advanced on the police with the knives. Whether he was completely out of control, 99% out of control, or stark raving mad doesn't make a difference. He had to be stopped before he killed someone.

Quote:

All the males who believe the police did the right thing - think back to when you were 15 and how turbulent your emotions were at that age.

So what? He still had to be stopped. I never went on a public rampage with knives. I doubt anyone else here did either. We certainly wouldn't have tried to take on an armed policeman. Whatever reason he had for being angry is totally irrelevant. Even if had had good reason to be pissed off it is totally irrelevant. He had to be stopped.

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locutius

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #114 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:41pm

PointDextrous
Did you have a point in that pontificating jumble advocating superiority of your generation with complete disregard for what we are talking about and the points that have been made. Points made sensibly I might add, as opposed to your Salvador Dali type attempt at literacy.

PointDextrous states
Quote:

It makes a difference to certain debates knowing who is whom. I wonder how many defenders of the State shooting are BabyBoomers; furthermore, I challenge those to own up.

It doesn't make any difference to me who you are in a debate, it is what you are saying that matters.

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« Last Edit: Dec 16^th, 2008 at 5:09pm by locutius »

I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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mantra Gold Member Offline ozpolitic.com Posts: 10750 Gender:	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #115 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:43pm Quote: Thats a generalisation; BBs' implies a specific generation, "old timers" can go beyond the generational markers. "War Timers" maybe. Baby boomers were born between 1946-1964 - they're not all quite over the hill yet.
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locutius

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #116 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 5:19pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2008 at 4:41pm:

Quote:

All the males who believe the police did the right thing - think back to when you were 15 and how turbulent your emotions were at that age.

So what? He still had to be stopped. I never went on a public rampage with knives. I doubt anyone else here did either. We certainly wouldn't have tried to take on an armed policeman. Whatever reason he had for being angry is totally irrelevant. Even if had had good reason to be pissed off it is totally irrelevant. He had to be stopped.

Not sure what you want us to say here Mantra. Put ourselves in his shoes. Why? I am telling you that I think what happened is a reasonable expectation for that sort of rot. If you want to wear some shoes, try some on from real victims of crimes, that have lost people that were really murdered.

I will also tell you that the hiding I would have recieved from my father had I lived to make it home would have not had the benefit of death to ease the pain.

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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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mantra

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #117 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 6:27pm

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Not sure what you want us to say here Mantra. Put ourselves in his shoes. Why? I am telling you that I think what happened is a reasonable expectation for that sort of rot. If you want to wear some shoes, try some on from real victims of crimes, that have lost people that were really murdered.

I will also tell you that the hiding I would have recieved from my father had I lived to make it home would have not had the benefit of death to ease the pain.

Yes Locutius - the protection of potential victims of crime has to come first. Maybe it does go back to his family and perhaps when he initially became so angry after his father's death they should have got help for him.

The whole scenario is just a travesty and too many lives have been affected - but theoretically we've got to look at the big picture - so the sooner Taysers are brought in the better. It might save a few lives if nothing else - although I can just imagine how many people will be shot with these things. The use of them would still be better than death.

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Amadd

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #118 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 8:29pm

As far as I can tell, no physical injury had (yet) occured. So the only real victims lie in the imagining of how events may have proceeded.
As far as I know, up until the point of his death, the only crime that had been committed was stealing knives, damaging property, scaring the public and threats to police officers (with no civilian witnesses on that one).
If tried and convicted of these crimes, he probably would've received juvenile detention. Most probably not a death sentence.

The ad nauseum statements about only caped crusaders being able able to pull off such an amazing feat as avoiding the killing of that child are ridiculous.
They wouldn't quite get their own comic strip called "The amazing four". I don't think it would sell many copies.

15yrs of age in the eyes of the law is a child, nomatter if he is built like a young Chopper Reid (as first assumed by locutius in his initial brainwashed imagining of the scene), or if he was smaller than the average 15yr old boy.
It turns out that he was smaller than average.

Media reports would've also conjured images of a hitler youth on some fascist rampage. This also seems very unlikely.
Other images conjured may include him coming from an uncaring crime ridden deadbeat family (which in itself certainly doesn't justify anything), but this was also not the case.
It might also be assumed through initial media reports that he had a long history of violence and mental disturbance.

Even if it is now accepted that this initial imagined picture that most of you would've had (if you were to be honest) turned out to be something very different, you'd still do your very best to find justification and maybe even try to convince yourselves that an eight year old girl should've been shot in that situation.
And if not, then why not?
The only point that you could come back to is "accepted risk".
To accept an eight year girl being killed in this situation, you would need to lower your point of accepted risk to the level of sheer cowardice and disgust. This is the level at which I see it now.
But I'm wondering just where you may draw the line...hmmm? 14yrs old and small? 10yrs old and large?
Where's your limit? Everybody who thought the killing was justified has one.

Gen X, but not by a long way.i

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« Last Edit: Dec 16^th, 2008 at 8:49pm by Amadd »

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mozzaok

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #119 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:05pm

To late to try and turn it around now Ammad, most people did, and still do, think it was a terrible shame, but the fact was, it was the actions of this youth, in creating the scenario he did, that caused this tragedy.

You came out with inflammatory and downright offensive remarks about the police officers, not because you had any special insights, but because of your personal issues with authority, and assuming their response was therefore, cold, cruel, and heartless, when you had no valid reasons to make such assumptions.

The issue of when they would have to take such action is not a matter of weight, or height or age, it is about assessing whether a serious, credible, life threatening risk was involved, and the vast majority would agree, that in this case it was.

End of story.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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