Australian Politics Forum - Did this child deserve to die?

Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #120 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:07pm I'd really like to hear where your accepted level of risk lies guys. It's important to me. FD, Mozz, Muso, Locutius, Calanen? I hope you give it some thought, because I'll try to grind you down even lower.
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tallowood

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #121 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:14pm

This story is full of negativism.
1 The kid is idiot because he took on pistol armed police with useless knifes.
2 Police are idiots because all they do is shoot to kill.
3 The kid's mother is idiot because she called to police.
4 Everybody in this discussion are idiots because they support 1 or 2 or may be 3

Let's look on the bright side.
There is an overpopulation issue, there are too many humans for the environment to support. The kid's killing is good for the earth environment. If the kid killed police it would be good for the earth environment. If anybody of us would get killed it would be for the earth environment.
Hey, it is always win-win situation if you look at things optimistically.

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ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #122 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:17pm Nothing has turned Mozz, except that you admit that you won't answer. Ala BO. You wouldn't want to be like that now would you?
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locutius

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #123 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:22pm

Amadd wrote on Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:07pm:

I'd really like to hear where your accepted level of risk lies guys. It's important to me.
FD, Mozz, Muso, Locutius, Calanen?
I hope you give it some thought, because I'll try to grind you down even lower.

??? It's important to you? Grind us down??? What are you talking about??

Present a detailed hypthetical and I might decide to play, otherwise as Mozza said "End of story"

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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #124 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:25pm A rather largely built 8 year old? Would that be OK? He (or even she) could still quite easily kill with a knife. Maybe even more easily than the 58kg 15yr old.
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Amadd

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #125 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:36pm

Personally, the age doesn't matter to me in this situation because I want to know beyond reasonable doubt that the intent was to kill people before the death penalty is imposed.
If he ran through K-Mart slashing boxes and not people, didn't slash the dog or it's owner, then I have reasonable doubt that the intent was to kill.

But for those who support your beloved police force without question, I want to know your age limit where the police actions are acceptable in this exact same situation.

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mozzaok

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #126 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:42pm

I already put it in my last post.
In your haste to grind me down, you must have missed it.

When a serious, credible, life threatening risk is involved.

We do not need a hypothetical to assess that this was the situation that those police faced.

So in your facile attempt to extract a formula for when is a life threatening risk involved, let's just say it is when someone has the will, and capability to carry out their threats.

Your position is that this youth was incapable of carrying out his stated aim, mine is that he was, hence the police were justified, in my opinion, and that of the broader community.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #127 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:51pm Then any age or gender would be acceptable? Is that your answer? An eight year old girl even? Quote: We do not need a hypothetical to assess that this was the situation that those police faced. You must admit that the crime itself was in fact hypothetical.
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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #128 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 9:57pm And when does the public need to accept some risk and display some bravery for the lives of children? Edit....or at least some intelligence?
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freediver

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #129 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:02pm

Quote:

As far as I can tell, no physical injury had (yet) occured. So the only real victims lie in the imagining of how events may have proceeded

.

So what? Are we to expect our police to not use forsight? Are they supposed to let knife wielding maniacs wander the street threatening people until someone is dead? Why do people seem to want stupid cops all of a sudden? It is a policeman's job to consider what maight happen if you let an enraged kid start stabbing people. They would be incompetent if they didn't show that forsight.

Quote:

The ad nauseum statements about only caped crusaders being able able to pull off such an amazing feat as avoiding the killing of that child are ridiculous.

No-o ne is saying that. What we are saying is that real people should not be expected to risk their own lives in this sort of situation. Obviously they could have, but that is not the point.

Quote:

15yrs of age in the eyes of the law is a child,

So what? It doesn't matter what age he was. What matters is that he was a threat. If a kitten was somehow a threat, by no fault of it's own, it would still be put down. It has nothing to do with innocence. Since when does being young mean he should be given a fair chance to stab a cop?

Quote:

turned out to be something very different, you'd still do your very best to find justification and maybe even try to convince yourselves that an eight year old girl should've been shot in that situation

A rather largely built 8 year old? Would that be OK?

If an eight year old girl wasn't stopped by capsicum spray and tried to stab me I wouldn't hesitate to shoot her. The mistake you keep making is insisting this is about strength. It isn't. It is about speed, and an eight year old girl can be fast enough to do some damage. I've seen some pretty feral kids in my time, and I wouldn't want to touch them with a ten foot pole.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #130 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:04pm Quote: If an eight year old girl wasn't stopped by capsicum spray and tried to stab me I wouldn't hesitate to shoot her. LOL thankyou FD, at least you're honest. Quite pathetic, but honest.
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freediver

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #131 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:09pm

I'm just not naive and stupid. Can you imagine an eight year old girl not getting stopped by capsicum spray and then coming at you with a knife? Even if I used a baton I nwould probably hit her hard enough to kill her on the first swing, and hope like hell I didn't miss. If someone wants to kill you, and even an eight year old with a decent knife is more than capable, you don't mess around. Who cares whether they are innocent, or were bullied at school, or they're having a really bad trip on ice. Not me.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Jim Profit

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #132 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:11pm

As an officer myself, (mind you only a security officer, but still) I can tell you that there is no justification in this circumstance for killing that child.

An idol threat is not a reason to kill someone. When I was trained, I was taught to use lethal and non-lethal force. And you should always lean toward non-lethal, even when your instinct tells you to go lethal.

Even if someone pointed a gun at me, it's my duty to simply subdue the perp, and protect the people around me. That's it. I'm not The Punisher..

I don't think this officer, or simaler cases do this on purpose as an abuse of power, I just think it's sheer incompetence. They were acting on their fears and not their training. And that's not a cop. That's a scard person who happens to be wielding a gun.

That's what seperates us from citizens. Our discipline, and our ability to keep a cool-head under preassure. If we can't do that, then we have no business wearing the badge.

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But I still believe there's something left for you and me.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48873 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #133 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:15pm So what would you actually do? The kid actually approached the officer and cornered him.
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Jim Profit

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #134 - Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:17pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2008 at 10:15pm:

So what would you actually do? The kid actually approached the officer and cornered him.

He should shoot to wound. Subdue the target and reduce the threat.

The kid was wielding a knife right? I don't know how tough you are, but I don't think I could lunge and stab someone if I got shot once or twice. Even if it was a non-vital area.

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But I still believe there's something left for you and me.

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