Australian Politics Forum - Did this child deserve to die?

easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #75 - Dec 14^th, 2008 at 10:08pm You know what is easier than training to disarm a knife, especially when you don't have to be very bright to be a cop? Stab proof vests and gloves.
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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #76 - Dec 14^th, 2008 at 10:30pm tallowood wrote on Dec 14^th, 2008 at 10:05pm: They are lucky not to shoot innocent bystanders or each other in the shooting spree. More likely to have happened if they had done something ridiculous like shooting to wound.
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locutius

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #77 - Dec 14^th, 2008 at 10:43pm

easel wrote on Dec 14^th, 2008 at 10:08pm:

You know what is easier than training to disarm a knife, especially when you don't have to be very bright to be a cop?

Stab proof vests and gloves.

These items are heavy and can hardly be expected to be worn all the time. So they have to take time out to get changed? Pity if you have to chase someone with the extra 20KG of chainmail. The gloves make it even more difficult to grapple with someone and what about the head, neck, groin, arms and legs. Major arteries run through the legs.

The other thing to consider is if police are going to such silly games as being suggested , and they get hurt while doing it, then it only makes it more likely that others will attempt it. If crims get the reality that they will be met with lethal force they are more likely to surrender. Afterall, that's what the idiot should have done and saved his own life. His choices means that his life is only worth a fraction of the polices' life and other innocents.

Am I glad he is dead? I don't know because I don't know if he would have gone out and harmed other people. Am I gunna shed a tear? No, if I do, then you know hell just had 12 inches of snow.

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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #78 - Dec 14^th, 2008 at 10:56pm Stab proof gear is pretty light. http://www.stabproofvest.co.uk/html/police_covert.html Maybe it was different in your day? I never said the cops were in the wrong shooting him.
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freediver

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #79 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 9:02am

Quote:

But I'd expect that police training includes at least some basic knife disarming techniques

It does contain knife disarming techniques. They are taught every safe option open to them - run, pepper spray, then shoot. That's more than enough options.

Quote:

They are lucky not to shoot innocent bystanders or each other in the shooting spree.

Another good reason for aiming for the torso.

Quote:

Stab proof vests and gloves.

I'd prefer not getting stabbed.

Quote:

Stab proof gear is pretty light.

You try walking around all day with all the crap the cops have to wear. You try shooting a gun, driving a car, operating a radio etc with a stab proof glove on. It's a stupid idea. It would put the public in greater danger. They should only have to carry what they need. They don't need stab proof crap, and it doesn't work anyway. They've got guns and pepper spray. The catapult idea is much more sensible.

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PointDextrous

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #80 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 10:39am

List of rights protected by the Victorian Charter:-

Rights protected by the Charter are:
• right to be recognised and equal before the law
• right to life
• right to be protected from torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, and not to be subject to medical or scientific experimentation or treatment without consent
• right not to be held in slavery or made to perform forced work
• right to freedom of movement
• right to privacy and reputation
• right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion and belief
• right to freedom of expression
• right of peaceful assembly and freedom of association
• right of families and children to protection by society and the State
• right to take part in public life
• right of a person to practise and enjoy his or her culture, religion and language
• right not to be deprived of property
• right to liberty and security of person
• right of a person deprived of liberty to be treated humanely
• right of a detained child to be segregated from detained adults
• right to a fair hearing
• right of a person charged with a criminal offence to be presumed innocent
• right not to be tried or punished more than once
• rights concerning retrospective criminal laws.

http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/facs/bdb/fmu/service-agreement/5.departmental-policies-and-procedures/5.9-victorian-charter-of-human-rights-and-responsibilities

The Juvenile in questions' 'Rights" were clearly violated by the State.

Has the State violated the Charter for the 42nd time in a year?

He and his Family have the 'Right" to retrospective "justice".

He came quite obviously from a well to-do family, who would likely be well ignorant of the true nature of a Leviathan State such as Victoria, a Police state of reknown >(oxymoron not included).

It is likely, the brutal State easily exceeded its hand against the weak and innocent family.

Police training is likely suitable; nothing accounts for individual auto-machismo in a Leviathan State.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #81 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 10:43am Right to life does not mean right to stab people.
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locutius

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #82 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 10:52am

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2008 at 10:43am:

Right to life does not mean right to stab people.

Exactly!!

It is like the drunken idiots who claim " it's a free country, we have a right to play our music loudly a 3 am in the morning" have no concept of rights, because if they did they would understand that their actions are violating other peoples rights.

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PointDextrous New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25 There	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #83 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:12pm freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2008 at 10:43am: Right to life does not mean right to stab people. Hang on; was someone stabbed? Or are we quibbling about a mere State shooting?????
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #84 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:15pm Right to life implies the right to self defence. That is what the cops did. You don't have to let someone stab you before you can defend yourself and the general public against them. Trying to frame this as a rights issue is clutching at straws. It is absurd.
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PointDextrous

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #85 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:30pm

right;

so according to 'rights' dispensationists and 'rights' pundits, one gives up ones right perhaps as soon as one walks out the door. Is that what you suggest FD?

Or, perhaps you are in defence of the State, the Leviathan state, or some near cousin. In any case, to suggest that the State is correct at all turns, and then to defend what ultimately is indefensible, really only makes Big Brother stronger.

Is it more true and correct that the State frame the incident in terms of 'self defence', this great and mighty infusion, armed and semi-dangerous at all times, rather than for once siding with the defenceless?

Seriously, it is a decrepit posture to take, that the VicPol were all affright, shaken and stirred to offence, against a wild upper-middle class student come homeboy.

Although I agree, there is probably an angle for the State to pursue in self defence, but really, the evidence is against them.

Perhaps the problem resided in expediency, and VicPol Command not wanting to be tied up in an icident for too long. Perhaps time got the kid killed.

And Politics will intervene, because 'Rights; were abused, and the kids 'right to life' was snuffed out by a posture too broad for any one player to carry. It is unlikely I reckon that in this case there was too much of a burden on VicPol to perform within the so-called :'Charter of Rights", which if we observe for a time, will probaly be disembowled and used to support the States 'Rights' to 'Self Defence"; forget the individual ones.

Ala Labor thinking.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: Did this child deserve to die? Reply #86 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:35pm It's simple. This is not a rights issue. Individual rights are just that - individual. They do not extend to trampling other people's rights. Never have done. Right to life does not mean you can't get yourself killed.
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Neferti

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #87 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 4:46pm

At least this Forum hasn't bought religion into this "event". Yet! The Police do what they are trained and paid to do.

Go off half-cocked with knives and/or guns and threaten the public, cops get involved. It has nothing to do with your age or mental ability. Cops are there to protect the PUBLIC not the individual.

I think too many people watch too many American TV Cop Shows. Wink

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locutius

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #88 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 5:06pm

PointDextrous wrote on Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:30pm:

one gives up ones right perhaps as soon as one walks out the door. Is that what you suggest FD?

Where was that suggested?? That's a riduculous extension of the points that have been made.

PointDextrous wrote on Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:30pm:

In any case, to suggest that the State is correct at all turns, and then to defend what ultimately is indefensible, really only makes Big Brother stronger.

How could it be indefensible, I have defended it. It may be that the details of the the story is wrong and will be shown to be wrong. But as the details stand at this time, a fair and justified action was taken. Interesting that the integrity of a knife weilding idiot is automatically given more credibility than the defenders. What's your agenda? Haven't attended too many victims of violent crime meetings?? Would I be guessing right?

PointDextrous wrote on Dec 15^th, 2008 at 3:30pm:

And Politics will intervene, because 'Rights; were abused, and the kids 'right to life' was snuffed out by a posture too broad for any one player to carry. It is unlikely I reckon that in this case there was too much of a burden on VicPol to perform within the so-called :'Charter of Rights", which if we observe for a time, will probaly be disembowled and used to support the States 'Rights' to 'Self Defence"; forget the individual ones.

Ala Labor thinking ???????

.

This is not a rights issue. Chartered Rights, Bill of Rights. These are all good things. But you should learn to understand what they are about and the spirit of these documents before you start quoting them.

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« Last Edit: Dec 15^th, 2008 at 5:15pm by locutius »

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Amadd

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #89 - Dec 15^th, 2008 at 6:24pm

Quote:

I think too many people watch too many American TV Cop Shows.

What are you talking about Neferti?
It could've been a scene from an American cop show called "dirty rotten filthy disgusting Harry".

It makes me wonder why the cops were called at all.
All the public needed was to have access to a gun and then choose somebody without a conscience to do the job.
Why do we need police protection for that?
Sorry, but their actions don't make me feel safe at all. I'd feel much safer if those cops (the 3 that shot) were behind bars.

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