Australian Politics Forum - Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #15 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 12:23pm

Calanen wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 9:47am:

Also, its bs that we give all these passports and then call them 'Aussies'.

In my ideal state - I'd bring in the 'Citizenship Revocation Act'.

Get everyone made a citizen between a certain period to swear allegiance to a secular state and the separation of church and state, and loyalty to Australia and its people and their defence above persons of any other faith or country. Anyone who refused, snip snip on the ol passport.

Instead of a citizenship test there should be a more detailed oath along these lines. It would be incumbent on all to learn and understand the meaning of the details before they take the oath of citizenship. Those who subsequently perjure themselves should be persecuted and punished, including being stripped of their citizenship in serious cases. Same for permanent residents.
It is not too much to ask to respect the laws and customs of your hosts. Anyone who says it is too much should seek hospitality elsewhere. It is the proper price for the right to participate in the life of the country, including the right to contribute to the making of the laws of the land.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult' Reply #16 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 12:53pm I hope you're not implying that this particular woman doesn't deserve to be an Australian. Are you suggesting another 'tier' of citizenship, or are we all at risk of being sent overseas to whatever country will accept Australian rejects?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #17 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 1:21pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 12:53pm:

I hope you're not implying that this particular woman doesn't deserve to be an Australian.

No, I am not. I am commenting a propos granting and revoking citizenship.

Quote:

Are you suggesting another 'tier' of citizenship, or are we all at risk of being sent overseas to whatever country will accept Australian rejects?

Yes, I am suggesting that citizenship is a right only when certian obligations are met. I realise that being native born does not make one a model citizen but there are other ways than through citizenship to deal with such people.

Citizenship is a suitable instrument, however, for those who had another citizenship before they became Australians. After all, Australian citizenship is not only a matter for the individuals who are naturalised but at least as importantly, a matter for the Australian polity that accepts them and confers the citizenship. Citizenship is not only a legal matter, it is also about something mutual, something of the heart and the mind.
To paraphrase Job, it should always be a case in relation to acquired citizenships: "Australia giveth, Australia taketh away, blessed be Australia."

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult' Reply #18 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 1:25pm So there should be second class citizens who are at risk of getting turfed out? What if the country they used to be a citizen off refuses to let Australia dump our criminals on them? Should we drop them off at the embassy, ring the doorbell, then run away?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #19 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:17pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 1:25pm:

So there should be second class citizens who are at risk of getting turfed out? What if the country they used to be a citizen off refuses to let Australia dump our criminals on them? Should we drop them off at the embassy, ring the doorbell, then run away?

Not second class. Naturalised people are given citizenship in return for a promise, an oath. If they break their promise, their citizenship should also be 'broken'.

And no need to run, just ring the bell, say g'day and hand over the perjurer. Yeah, maybe there'd be a few people living in airports for a while but airports are good, they smell of adventure.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40757 Gender:	Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult' Reply #20 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:25pm soren - hahaha, excellent Quote: maybe there'd be a few people living in airports for a while but airports are good, they smell of adventure.
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

tallowood

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6048

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #21 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:58pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 1:25pm:

So there should be second class citizens who are at risk of getting turfed out? What if the country they used to be a citizen off refuses to let Australia dump our criminals on them? Should we drop them off at the embassy, ring the doorbell, then run away?

Not second class. Naturalised people are given citizenship in return for a promise, an oath. If they break their promise, their citizenship should also be 'broken'.

And no need to run, just ring the bell, say g'day and hand over the perjurer. Yeah, maybe there'd be a few people living in airports for a while but airports are good, they smell of adventure.

It may work with multiple citizens but not with those who have none that's why I advocate single citizenship only as prerequisite for being an Australian.
Besides it is a security risk to have criminals living in airports.

Back to top

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult' Reply #22 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 3:06pm Quote: there'd be a few people living in airports for a while Until they died? You want to turn out airports into jails, so that you can pretend you sent immigrant criminals home?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #23 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 3:33pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 3:06pm:

Quote:

there'd be a few people living in airports for a while

Until they died? You want to turn out airports into jails, so that you can pretend you sent immigrant criminals home?

Who said anything about our airports? Revoking your citizenship means that you are cleared for departure by immigration.

If keeping your word is too much to ask, don't apply for citizenship. It's not compulsory.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult' Reply #24 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 3:42pm Quote: Who said anything about our airports? You did. Quote: Revoking your citizenship means that you are cleared for departure by immigration. Departure to where? Christmas Island?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21800
A cat with a view

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #25 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 4:28pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:17pm:

......Naturalised people are given citizenship in return for a promise, an oath. If they break their promise, their citizenship should also be 'broken'.

On the point, about persons deceiving us, to gain residence / citizenship.....

A person insulting, disrespecting and deceiving ISLAM, err Australia ?

If a person, a muslim, comes to Australia, with no intention to integrate.
....a person who has every intention to reject the authority of our laws.

When it can be demonstrated [and clearly proved] that such a person, a devout muslims comes with the intention to 'Jihad' against Australia [i.e. to undermine, and destroy the culture, the institutions, and society of Australia],
....we should perhaps consult Sharia?

How is a person [the muslim and non-muslim] punished within a Sharia jurisdiction, who insults, disrespects, and deceives ISLAM / Allah???

Would determined muslims within Australia complain, if the same Sharia punishments were put upon themselves [rejecting the authority of OUR laws], for their disrespect of our host culture ?

Those who disrespect and insult Allah, die [at the hands of muslims] having no protector.

Koran,

"....those who reject (Allah),- for them is destruction, and (Allah) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
....those who reject Allah have no protector."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.008
v. 8-11

"Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.034

Google,
kill those who insult ISLAM
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=kill+those+who+insult+ISLAM&btnG=Search&...

++++++++

Psalms 9:16
The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #26 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 7:58pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 3:42pm:

Quote:

Who said anything about our airports?

You did.

Now, now. I did not.
No need to be a fantasist. Lestat should not be your role model.

Quote:

Revoking your citizenship means that you are cleared for departure by immigration.

Quote:

Departure to where? Christmas Island?

Don't tell me that everyone given citizenship was a stateless person before. You understand the principle yet treat a minor detail (a very occasional stateless refugee) as if it was the pinciple itself. The principle is that if you break your promise, you lose what was given you on the basis of that promise.
There is no need to be oscurantist and to pretend that the principle is somehow incomprehensible.

If there is nowhere to send perjurers then Christmas Island will have to do.
Or an airport outside Australia, if you insist.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49133
At my desk.

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #27 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 8:04pm

Quote:

Now, now. I did not.

Yes you did, right here:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 1:25pm:

So there should be second class citizens who are at risk of getting turfed out? What if the country they used to be a citizen off refuses to let Australia dump our criminals on them? Should we drop them off at the embassy, ring the doorbell, then run away?

Not second class. Naturalised people are given citizenship in return for a promise, an oath. If they break their promise, their citizenship should also be 'broken'.

And no need to run, just ring the bell, say g'day and hand over the perjurer. Yeah, maybe there'd be a few people living in airports for a while but airports are good, they smell of adventure.

Quote:

Don't tell me that everyone given citizenship was a stateless person before.

No, but they will be if you deport them and their old country doesn't want them back. Tell me, how do you think England would feel about us taking in a heap of Emglish immigrants, then returning all the ones that turn out to be criminals? This is the bit you fail to grasp. Other countries don;t particularly want our muderers, rapists, thieves etc. Once they have Australian citizenship, they are our problem.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult'
Reply #28 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 8:28pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 8:04pm:

Quote:

Now, now. I did not.

Yes you did, right here:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 1:25pm:

So there should be second class citizens who are at risk of getting turfed out? What if the country they used to be a citizen off refuses to let Australia dump our criminals on them? Should we drop them off at the embassy, ring the doorbell, then run away?

Not second class. Naturalised people are given citizenship in return for a promise, an oath. If they break their promise, their citizenship should also be 'broken'.

And no need to run, just ring the bell, say g'day and hand over the perjurer. Yeah, maybe there'd be a few people living in airports for a while but airports are good, they smell of adventure.

Quote:

Don't tell me that everyone given citizenship was a stateless person before.

No, but they will be if you deport them and their old country doesn't want them back. Tell me, how do you think England would feel about us taking in a heap of Emglish immigrants, then returning all the ones that turn out to be criminals? This is the bit you fail to grasp. Other countries don;t particularly want our muderers, rapists, thieves etc. Once they have Australian citizenship, they are our problem.

Sometimes the simplest thing is insurmountable...

Knock, say g'day, hand over the perjurer - so they can book the flight because the perjurer has been cleared for departure, that is, has become an 'unlawful non-citizen', to use Ruddock's immortal words.

I am sorry if I indulge in the occasional ellision. I feel it is condescending to spell everything out for ostensible equals.

I was not talking about returning any or every criminal, although the possibility should be available. Breaking a solemn promise is not the same kind of thing as breaking a nose.

I was talking about revoking citizenship for perjury, lying under oath. This would apply to people who take an oath, covering the kind of details raised by calanen - accepting the principles of Australian society. Jailing them would be also good but the possibility of revoking citizenship should also be available.
Bebrinka and his bearded students would have to go.

I would not make citizenship available to anyone who cannot prove continuous employment for last 5 years. And would make citizenship revocable for for crimes commited in the first say 10-15 years of citizenship if they carry more than a certian minimum penalty (anything over, say, 5 years).

Gaining citizenship is an increasingly corrupt process. It shoudl be made less bent. As to how England would feel if criminals were returned? They would welcome the precedent, believe me.i

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: Aussie mum jailed for 'insult' Reply #29 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 9:37pm For some reason you keep failing to address the issue of whether the country they originally came from would take them back.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged